The Heretics' Hour: Treaties of Saint-Germain and Trianon – How they reshaped Central and Southeastern Europe

margel

February 19, 2013 at 8:21 am

Hi Carolyn,
My message is in no way disrespectful of what you do but, this time you really lost it! From this show it is clear that you do not know the history of that part of Europe, not even its main points. I am curios, what you said on air, is it from your own research or is it something someone else wrote? Here is a brief history of that area of Europe:
1. There was no Germany as a unified country until the end of the 19th century. Starting in around the 11th century, the power in Central Europe was hold by an entity called “Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation”. This kind of empire was not absolutist and dominated by the Habsburg nobility (was also called the Habsburg Empire). It was a collection of many small entities, thee most important one been Austria.
2. There was a MEDIEVAL kingdom of Hungary to the east. However, it was destroyed by the Turks in 1526. After that date, the medieval kingdom of Hungary was divided between the Turks (most of Hungary), the Habsburgs who took the western and northern parts, and Transylvania which became an independent kingdom under Turkish control.
3. After the Polish army saved Vienna (yes it is true!) in 1683, the Habsburg Empire incorporated this area into their empire. It was still not Austrian Empire or Austria-Hungarian empire at all! Hungary was simply a part of multi ethnic Habsburg empire. However, slowly the name Austrian Empire will became familiar.
4. After Austria defeat by Prussia in 1866, the empire was about to collapse. The starve off the disintegration, the Habsburg agree to create the so called Dual Monarchy called Austria-Hungary. The lands were divided in two: one part remains under the control of Vienna and the other under the control of the Hungarians. I do not have time and space to talk about what happened to non Hungarians in the Hungarian part of the empire but, you can find out details on the Web.
5 in 1916 (middle of WWI) Field Marshal Ludendorff has this to say about Austria-Hungary empire:
……
Shortly after Field Marshal Ludendorff’s appointment as Quartermaster-General of the German army in 1916, he made a visit to Austrian high command headquarters. Having observed the chaos in Franz Josef’s multinational army, the absence of motivation on the part of many of the Austrian troops, and the tendency of imperial units to divide along national lines, Ludendorff reported to the kaiser: “Sire, we are allied with a corpse.”
……
(http://www-student.unl.edu/cis/hist101w03/online_course/unit3/lsn13-tp04.html)

Yes the empire was a corpse and had to go away!

Thanks,

Margel.

Carolyn

February 19, 2013 at 10:24 am

From this show it is clear that you do not know the history of that part of Europe, not even its main points.

Let me tell you, “Margel,” that you are completely missing the point. As you may have overlooked, the title of this show is “The Treaties of Saint-Germain and Trianon, and how they reshaped Europe.” Not the complete history of Central Europe beginning with the Holy Roman Empire, medieval Europe, the Ottoman Empire or the Battle of Vienna. How much history do you think can be gotten into a 2 hour show? I am not trying to be a show-off like you, but wanting to express some ideas to listeners. Therefore your points 1 through 3, at least, are just grandstanding.

I did mention the multicultural nature of the Austro-Hungarian Empire; I did say that Adolf Hitler hated it for that reason; I did not say that I thought it was wonderful and the ideal type of state, but they had, historically, kept all the various factions functioning fairly well without Revolution, as the Serbs and Jews always want to create. I do know that Germany/Prussia was unhappy in their alliance with A-H as a military partner and were dragged down by it. But what’s new about that – Italy and several others did the same in WWII – it’s the quality or nature of the people. Whether the Empire was “a corpse and had to go away” doesn’t change the fact that the way the Entente powers handled their victory was disastrous for Europe. Forcing the war to begin with was disastrous. This program was limited to these treaties after the war.

And no, I am not a history scholar nor do I pretend to be. But I challenge you to point out what actual, particular error of fact I made rather than your blanket indictment. I am curious to know what you consider the difference between “what someone else wrote” and “my own research” which would be from what someone else wrote. It’s all from what someone else wrote.

margel

February 19, 2013 at 10:46 am

Ok In understand your point but no my points were not grandstanding! I think the background of Habsburg empire has to be understood before talking about any bad things done to A-H at Trianon.

Your show (at lest to me) was about how bad A-H was treated at Trianon. Germany was horrifically treated at Saint-Germain. That is a fact. It was fooled into laying down the arms and then it lost territories which were German. However, the A-H empire (I say A-H not the prev. Habsburg empire), was different and it treated the people within its borders way worse than for example the Hungarian minorities were treated after the war. That is a fact!
There is a clear distinction between the bad treatment of Germany and the breaking up of the A-H empire which was a ‘corpse’. It is not me saying that A-H was a ‘corpse’ it is Field Marshal Ludendorff and I think he knew what he was talking about.

Thanks,
Margel

Markus

February 19, 2013 at 7:27 pm

This was a good show and also an introduction to the inner-German complications that divides the German Realm to this day. Austrian-Germans are a very spiritual German people, and play their part as “head and soul” of Germany, while “German-Germany” is rather the body of the entity. Therefore, it was no wonder why an Austrian-German was able to reunite and lead all Germans as a whole, named Adolf Hitler, and why Austria has Anschluss-Verbot by the Allies! We see that to this day, “Germany-Germans” are rather quite and correct, almost bitter, while Austrians are uplifted and playful folks. With Hitler reigning in Germany, the “body” of the empire got its completion with an Austrian head of state.

Vienna is really the Capitol of Germany, and Napoleon destroyed the unity in 1806 already, after prior attempts during the First Thirty Years’ War by the Allies.

I also wanted to add that Mexico’s last Emperor was an Austrian, Maximilian. When he was put on the throne, he canceled all debts of the common people and his wife was also a great humanitarian and cared for Mexico’s children. Maximilian was finally kicked out (and killed I believe) and the Republic of Mexico emerged in the 1860′s. (I wonder who was behind that?).

Carolyn

February 19, 2013 at 8:42 pm

Margel,
The Entente victors did not dismantle the Austro-Hungarian empire because it “was a corpse,” or because it didn’t treat is subjects well enough, or because Ludendorff didn’t like it. It did it to weaken Germany through weakening it’s “allies” and strengthening it’s adversaries (Poland and Czechoslovakia especially). Though you must know that Poland doesn’t like being called “Eastern European” and insists it is a very key member of Europe.

Markus

February 19, 2013 at 9:31 pm

Read about Otto von Habsburg, 1912-2011, Austrian heir and head of the Habsburg Haus.

He was percecuted by the NS regime after the Anschluss for high treason. Otto fled to the US and held several conversations with Churchill and Roosevelt to reorganize Europe.

After WW2, he heavily worked on uniting Europe. He also made comments about Jews and Blacks running the US.

margel

February 19, 2013 at 9:56 pm

Carolyn,
…….
it. It did it to weaken Germany through weakening it’s “allies” and strengthening it’s adversaries (Poland and Czechoslovakia especially)
…….
I am sorry but I disagree. A country is at its peak when it is the same people, the same nation inside national borders. If by dismantling the A-H empire the Entente wanted to weaken Germany, that action did not succeed!
You yourself said that Hitler did not like A-H and, I am sure he never wanted to incorporate in Germany any non German lands. So dismantling the A-H did not weaken Germany. Taken German territories from Germany DID weaken it.
As for strengthening Poland and Czechoslovakia, let’s be serious! When such small countries did ever pose a threat to a country the size and with the industry of Germany?
Can you name ONE good thing A-H brought to the war effort for Germany?

Thanks,
Margel.

Carolyn

February 19, 2013 at 10:19 pm

Markus, I know. But you’re the one that said the Austrians were more spiritual.

Markus

February 19, 2013 at 10:38 pm

Margel, Poland got access to the Baltic to be supplied by Britain and was/is neighbored by Czecholsowakia, which is right in between Vienna and Berlin. A perfect satellite state to attack the German Realm, also for the Soviet Union, which had a border to Czecholsowakia.

Carolyn, have you ever visited Austria? It is like heaven. The alps are epic, Vienna is a golden city. Vienna was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation, and can not be compared to some local German duchy or kingdom. Not even Prussia could compete with that. Prussia is rather worldly, with the best knowledge of military. Middle and West Germany are best in technology. Southern Germany is the mind with its universities.

The Spirit controls the Flesh. Austria is the spirit, Germany the flesh.

Carolyn

February 19, 2013 at 10:47 pm

margel – this is the last comment from you I will publish. You completely lack logic and context.

1. The reason the Victors did what they did is one thing. What others did later is another.

2. Poland and Czechoslovakia together were as large as or larger than Germany sfter 1919. They had also, along with France on the other side, taken some of Germany’s best industrial areas. Austria was smaller than Czechoslovakia. Germany, Austria and Hungary were surrounded by enemies.

3. All you’re interested in is pointing out how much you hate Austro-Hungary. Okay, we get it.

Carolyn

February 20, 2013 at 2:08 am

Carolyn, have you ever visited Austria?

Yes, I have, but only Vienna, Linz and Berchtesgaden. All I had time for. Three days in Vienna. I’m not sure I agree with you. Vienna was noisy. You are forgetting about Goethe, Schiller and Bach up there in Weimar and Erfurt, Würzburg and Leipzig. You have created a theory that pleases you and so for you it’s true.

Markus

February 20, 2013 at 3:59 am

Carolyn,

Wonderful, I hope you enjoyed your visit!

Nowadays, and even during Hitler’s Vienna times, Vienna is quite a shadow of its past, and the cities you mentioned in Germany are very beautiful and speak for themselves also.

But to support my point that Austria and Germany are actually one entity that has been separated by various reasons, I include a link to the funural of Otto von Habsburg. The church goers honor him by singing a slightly modified version of the Austrian Kaiser anthem. It has the same melody as the current German one, and the original Kaiser Franz anthem only speaks of German lands in one verse, not of Austrian lands.

http://youtu.be/M5V98E3e9eA

Watching the whole ceremony with the march through the city, it also becomes clear that nationalism and taking pride in German-Austrian history is much more accepted than in Germany.

The Southern Tyrolers, btw, in Italy are the most nationalistic group of all Germans, as they demand the Anschluss to Austria!

Hitler once said that uniting the German nation was the greatest achievement of his political career.

Playing German, Austrian, Prussian, etc anthems would also be my suggestion for your musical breaks on the show…

Carolyn

February 20, 2013 at 10:51 am

But to support my point that Austria and Germany are actually one entity that has been separated by various reasons,

I never said otherwise in the program or here in the comments or anywhere, so I don’t know why you need to ‘support’ your point, but you’re welcome to make it. You are right about the Austrians being more nationalistic, but one can come up with several reasons for that besides spirituality. But it might be that. It’s an open and interesting question.

It’s not my style to play national anthems, especially to a wide, mixed audience.

Carolyn

February 20, 2013 at 3:56 pm

To Florin – I am not going to publish your 4 or 5 comments since they do not directly impact on the program. I don’t have the time to read and discuss in depth the history of Romania and I’m not going to give you free rein to spam this site. Sorry.