The Heretics' Hour: Will Williams meets William Finck

Published by carolyn on Mon, 2013-01-21 19:11

Jan. 21, 2013

Two men with very distinct personalities and followings meet each other for the first time on this program, revealing in the ensuing exchange that the division among White Nationalists over religion is deeper than any other disagreement. Will Williams, who was associated with William Pierce when he was alive, manages The Legacy of Dr. William Pierce and is a vehement foe of Christianity. William Finck is owner of Christogenea, a Christian Identity site, and it’s subdomain The Mein Kampf Project. Other topics discussed:

  • Was Adolf Hitler a Christian, a nominal Christian, or anti-Christian?
  • What sources for Hitler’s direct statements about religion are reliable?
  • The Sandy Hook “shooting” as a pretext for strict gun control laws;
  • How ordinary people can best lobby against the gun control legislation being pushed by the Obama administration;
  • What kind of guns do ordinary people need to own for effective self-defence;
  • The prevalence of false footage used in television news reports, as in a recent Anderson Cooper/CNN segment;
  • David Duke makes cozy with Gordon Duff on his radio show;
  • Public trust in government and business leaders is very low in a recent poll; time to take advantage of that?

Hadding Scott and Walt Hampton called in during the 2nd hour.


52 Responses

  1. Carl

    January 22, 2013 at 12:45 am

    Great show! I enjoyed the fireworks and thought everyone did a nice job of attack and defense. I had heard that Ben Klassen was a Jew of some kind, with a murky past, claiming to be a mennonite or something migrating away from Bolshevism, to Mexico and thence to Canada.

    I have been interested in Mr. Finck’s work since your coverage of his “Filthadelphia” article on The HH. He was saying during this episode that the precepts of Christianity are echoed in the ancient [White] literature. I think we can safely amplify his remarks to say that White population movements can be traced as well, in both the ancient literature and in the many White scriptures including those we today call the Bible. When the world is sane, I want Mr. Finck to be in charge of the Classics at a major university. Furthermore, the Bible seems presciently to outline exactly what happens when we, the chosen race, ignore our God. The Bible suddenly makes sense when it is interpreted as a racial document. As for Herr Hitler, I think the argument should be that he derived the correct racial understanding, which is what Christianity is. He recognized the partial value and partial detriment of the churches.

    I think the best argument against ‘creation’ as a religion is that it too easily lends itself to the view that all relatively hairless bipeds are more or less in the same boat, and just evolved a bit differently. The conflicts are not adequately explained through that lens. The best argument against Christianity being an ethnic convenience is that convenience isn’t as motivating as truth. I want the truth, not an abstract supposition of what was convenient in a bygone era.

    I think this: God made us, the Adamites. But he mentioned to the angels, who were created first, what His plan was, to make a human race. Some of the angels thought this was silly, or that they could do better, so, they decided to make a bunch of men-like creatures, which they did. And they were on the earth first. Then God did make us, the Adamites, and warned us about all the other people, so to speak. And those people despise us because they are pale copies of God’s own work. Negroes, Indians, what have you, will always despise us as their deepest sense, because they are the reflection of the angels who rebelled against God, and they can’t stand the outcome. The whole thing serves nicely as a test of us, the Adamites, because God can’t stand the lukewarm.

    And so the Adamites did sin, by dabbling in race-mixing, and wandered the earth, and the Bible and ancient literatures corroborate all that very nicely. Where I have looked at Mr. Finck’s references, they seem to check out. The adversities that we suffer today are all foretold, and are a punishment. And that’s why they are devilishly hard to do anything about.

  1. Joseph Northpal

    January 22, 2013 at 5:44 am

    I see why the white nationalist are stuck in the mud. The ignorance of people like Hadding Scott and Will Williams between religions and Christianity is a perfect example how jewish subversion has succeded. To suggest our morals, values, communities, societies and all other endeavors were not derived from a Christian perspective is like saying fish spawned from the land, some how crawled in to the ocean then learned to breath.

  1. Dana

    January 22, 2013 at 7:51 am

    Hello to the white network, its Dana (Carolyn knows who I am). From a quick read of the comment above, I have to assume that person is an adherent of CI. I tried to call in but did not get through, oh well, next time. Did not listen yet to the podcast cause I had to work, but I can’t wait, as I am in agreement with Will on Christianity. CI is a nice way to racialize the religion, but its not even close to the meaning of traditional, orthodox Christianity, which any way you split it is an alien religion forced on Europeans, although it was acculturated and integrated into our mythology, heritage, and history. I would debate Mr. Finck or any CI pastor, but considering we hold opposing views its probably pointless and counterproductive to fight about religion. The two things we should all agree on is 1. we are living in an age where racial survival on a global scale is priority number one, and 2. we will not come out on top unless we liberate ourselves from the grip of organized Jewish interests. Everything else is a side issue we can work out at a later date when our very existence is not threatened.

  1. katana

    January 22, 2013 at 8:40 am

    Thanks for the discussion (largely) on Christianity by the two Wills, Carolyn, Hadding and Walt. Despite getting a little heated here and there, there was plenty of interesting points made by all.

    For me Christianity is a destructive mind virus to its believers. It causes believers to sacrifice themselves to others for nothing, other than a pie in the sky reward. For a promise of reward when they die. Ridiculous.

    Bill, your intelligence and articulence I admire, but it’s being wasted by confining it through the ‘Christian’ worldview that you are trapped in.

    Will, your rambling views eventually nails it in ways that I found agreeable.

    Hadding, I think your views on Hitler and religion are spot on.

    Walt, tell your fellows to ditch Christianity.

    Carolyn, you did a good job of juggling cats.

  1. David Baillie

    January 22, 2013 at 9:49 am

    As usual, Hadding’s input is disruptive and proves to me that we will not pull out of this nose dive to extinction with self righteous ignorant people who will not even study the topic. I was of no fixed religious persuasion until I discovered Bill. Hadding … Shut up.

  1. Jon

    January 22, 2013 at 12:43 pm

    People really need to abandon the notion of the invisible man. The earth is a mere insignificant drop compared to the vast universe of stars and planets that outnumber the grains of sand on Earth. The Bronze age myths that millions of people subscribe to were written in a time when people were void of understanding basic science, yet people still go into confirmation bias lock-downs believing them.

  1. Will Williams

    January 22, 2013 at 1:51 pm

    @Carolyn: “Two men with very distinct personalities and followings meet each other for the first time on this program, revealing in the ensuing exchange that the division among White Nationalists over religion is deeper than any other disagreement.”

    That’s the last time we’ll be meeting, too, Carolyn. I’m not interest in “debating” Bill again. If the conclusion reached by listeners is that religion is the deepest division among WNs, then my main point somehow got through the chaos. The comments I see here in reaction to the show reflect this profound chasm in ideology.

    Here’s a link to the Utah Sheriffs’ Association recent letter to Obama which may help you when you approach your own sheriff to discuss his department’s possible enforcement of unconstitutional Federal gun confiscation:
    “[M]make no mistake, as the duly-elected sheriffs of our respective counties, we will enforce the rights guaranteed to our citizens by the Constitution. No federal official will be permitted to descend upon our constituents and take from them what the Bill of Rights-in particular Amendment II-has given them.
    “We, like you, swore a solemn oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and we are prepared to trade our lives for the preservation of its traditional interpretation.”

    @ Carl: “I had heard that Ben Klassen was a Jew of some kind, with a murky past.”

    You heard wrong. The original source for that oft-repeated, mendacious rumor is Harold Covington, reinforced by his supporters like Double-Seedline Pastor Mad Dog Lindstadt. Bill Finck and I agree, at least, that neither of these men can be relied upon to tell the truth.

    Katana, most of the points I’d planned to make concerning Jesus’s race and Hitler’s religious views were frustrated, either not allowed or talked over, so I’m pleased that you were able to grasp something from my ramble. You might enjoy transcribing some of Dr. Pierce’s teachings with us in your spare time. Being “agreeable” speaks well for you in this project. Who needs disagreeable?

  1. Carolyn

    January 22, 2013 at 2:02 pm

    I tried to get a discussion going about Sandy Hook and “fake news” in this program. Today I find more marvelous results of citizen researchers who are not willing to simply believe what the news media tells them.

    I just came upon this great discovery (above) at Clues Forum, which I have been following — a remarkably helpful site even though not everything posted pans out. But a lot does. They are serious citizen researchers and investigators too.

    Even more Bizarre information surrounding Adam P Lanza

    On December 14, 2012, beginning at around 9:30 a.m., a lone gunman, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, blasted past the security system of Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut, and killed 20 first-grade students and 6 adults.

    A sharp-eyed citizen journalist, “Space Command” on Prison Planet Forum, discovered something amazing: a Social Security Death Index (SSDI) for an Adam Lanza, born April 22, 1992, who died at age 20 on December 13, 2012! That’s a day BEFORE the Sandy Hook massacre.

    Adam P. Lanza: Social Security Death Index (SSDI) Death Record
    Name: Adam P. Lanza
    State of Issue: New Hampshire
    Date of Birth: Wednesday April 22, 1992
    Date of Death: Thursday December 13, 2012
    Est. Age at Death: 20 years, 7 months, 21 days
    Confirmation: Proven

    Information from article By Dr. Eowyn – Posted on January 20, 2013

    P. is for Peter, Adam’s father’s name … the one who is a bigwig at General Electric (NBC) and was paying over $200,000 per year in alimony/child support for Nancy Lanza and Adam. We always find that money is a motivator, don’t we?

    Was Adam’s body transferred to a Conn. morgue … Nancy Lanza’s too? Because she died on Dec. 14th, one day later, in New Hampshire too. Not in her bed at home in Newtown. News reports based on “friends” said she had gone to New Hampshire, as she sometimes did, for a short (2-day?)getaway and returned home on the evening of the 13th. The hotel records show she checked out that day, but guess she never made it home — except as a corpse.

  1. Hadding

    January 22, 2013 at 2:08 pm

    To suggest our morals, values, communities, societies and all other endeavors were not derived from a Christian perspective is like saying fish spawned from the land, some how crawled in to the ocean then learned to breath.

    Europeans had morality before the advent of Christianity, just as we had Pagan holidays that now wear the guise of Christian holidays. Christianity itself had been heavily influenced by European Paganism and philosophy even before it was imposed on Europe with further compromise.

  1. Carolyn

    January 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm

    Thanks Will, for that Sheriffs’ letter — it will be my pleasure to talk to my county sheriff about it. I’ll let you all know how it goes.

  1. Joshua

    January 22, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    Carolyn- You seem very nice and well inform. But this clown Will Williams is nothing but a damn fool who’s head is up the jews arse like no other.

  1. Kurt

    January 22, 2013 at 4:22 pm

    Carolyn, Alex Linder would be a great person to have on your show to talk about Christianity. He seems to be a hard man to book, though.

  1. Carl

    January 22, 2013 at 5:36 pm

    I think that what Mr. Finck has done for us is to explain what Christianity actually is, disentangling from it the various accretions that stem from prolonged Jewish [Edomite] influence. It’s partly a question of how we know things about ourselves. What record is reliable and meaningful? On Tan’s show, he sometimes uses genetic route maps, which come to us from science, based on markers scientists have noticed and pinned to specific time/place combinations. But what if a different creative source made marks which appear identical? To emphasize such charts risks the error of scientism, an exaggerated belief in the decisive power of science, in its methods and data. I think it is important to give the record written by Man [ I.e., us ] priority, because we are able to consciously write down where we are and what we are doing. And in the old days, when our identity was taken seriously, the written literature would have much honesty about it. “The Bible” is actually 60 or 70 or more old books, which have been curated very carefully by our people, so it helps to not see them as one item among many others. The literary record shows that White people are quite different from the others. So CI is a coherent refocusing of our identity and a resumen of our history. The chief problem we have today is our identity, or our lack thereof. This lacuna leaves us very porous and pliable. But I don’t think that CI is something we can do, specifically. It’s just an awareness of the truth about ourselves, which, the better spread it is, the more ready we’ll be when God signals that he’s had enough, and that we’re finally ready to embrace the truth more publicly and socially. When the student is ready, the master will appear. Something like that.

    Re Hadding, ‘the Europeans had morality prior to the advent of Christianity’, this is quite true. We Adamites, who are the Europeans, have the law written on our hearts. The ‘advent’ is partly the perversion of our religion, by making it external and magic-oriented. By correcting our history and seeing the population movements more clearly, we can recoup our identity.

  1. Carl

    January 22, 2013 at 6:19 pm

    Also I think CI is mostly a set of facts, rather than a religion. It becomes our religion if it’s true, but we are accustomed to thinking that a religion is a set of ‘beliefs’ and rituals. If the evidence gathered by CI is correctly gathered and interpreted, and if there is no countervailing evidence, then it’s quite safe. Your church can continue to be the outdoors, because there is no church building.

    CI is a continuation, going further into our history, of the process of discovery and uncovering that is needed after so much intellectual pollution by the Edomites. CI also makes it easier to deal with nonsense like that of “Andy” in another discussion section. He wanted us to divide the Europeans, but in CI we already understand that there are twelve tribes of Israelites. No problem. And, he wanted us to give the “Jews” a break on the grounds that they are not all the same racially. But in CI we already understand that the Edomites were race-mixers long ago. We don’t need them to be homogenous.

    As for confirmation bias, the truth should make sense of the available data. The scientistic view, the evolutionary view, and related views, turn a blind eye to consequences and patterns that we can observe. If everything evolves, then a negro sitting in a diner Sunday morning with a beautiful Adamite woman is simply bettering itself (and how!). If Jesus was a nobody, then our race spent centuries curating books of no value. It seems more likely that the negro is an expression of contempt, that the Adamite woman doesn’t know herself, and that the Edomites have effected a substantial brainwashing about our history, much as they can do in short-term projects like SH, and long-term projects like the Holocaust.

    Anyway I would never recommend a rapid shift in viewpoint. Rather, any thorough examination of ancient literature and related epistemological approaches would be informative. But mostly, just be interested in any systematic attempt to organize the available information. There is no shortage of surprises. Thank you.

  1. Carolyn

    January 22, 2013 at 7:22 pm

    Joshua – You’re wrong about Will. He’s certainly no friend of Jews. One of the problems of Christian Identist’s is that you’re satisfied you have ALL the answers. Bill Finck would not say what you just did. If he would say it, I would disagree with him. Will Williams is no fool.

  1. Carolyn

    January 22, 2013 at 8:47 pm

    Kurt – I understand, but Alex’s views on Christianity are well known. So what would be the point, except to give recognition to his views, which I don’t share. I’m talking to him now about coming on this Saturday, but we can’t find a topic that we agree on. He’s not hard to book, just hard to find something interesting to discuss … surprisingly.

    He is, though, as usual, very pleasant and easy to talk with. We’re having a long skype discussion on what Sandy Hook is. We don’t agree! But I don’t think either of us want to argue it out on a radio program. It would just be frustrating.

  1. Heathen

    January 22, 2013 at 8:52 pm

    Even today, the racial ideas of National Socialism have implacable opponents. Free Masons, Marxists, and the Christian Church join hands in brotherly accord on this point. The worldwide order of Free Masons conceals its Jewish plans for ruling the world behind the catchword “Mankind” or “Humanity.” Masonry can take much as credit for its effort to bring Jews and Turks into the fold, as does Christianity itself. Marxism has the same goal as Free Masonry.

    The Christians, above all the Roman Church, reject the race idea with the citation ‘before God all men are equal.” All who have the Christian belief, whether Jews,bush niggers, or whites are dearer to them and more worthwhile than a German who does not confess Christianity. The one binding bond, above and beyond all restrictions, is the Belief which alone brings salvation. – Page 10 of the Nazi Primer

    Truncated by moderator

  1. Carolyn

    January 22, 2013 at 9:15 pm

    Heathen – You cited a book by Hermann Rauschning, a recognized liar and fraud, further down in your comment, so I didn’t allow the rest of it. I won’t have that trash peddled here. Plus the Hitler Youth manual doesn’t have a translator’s name — it’s in English. I know they had such a manual, but can we be sure about this one?

    P.S. Jan. 23 – Let me repeat to Heathen (whose irrelevant comments to Tan’s show were not approved by Tan, as I recall) that I’m perfectly aware that Hitler was alive in 1939 (duh!), and that in saying the manual in question was not written in English, but German, I’m only saying that translations matter, a lot, depending on who did the translation. Also, these NS Party publications were written by the NSDAP, and I’m sure Hitler did not edit them (lol) or even read them. He was pretty busy and otherwise occupied in 1939! Thus you can’t attribute to him personally what is found in much of the literature. I have no problem at all with that manual; I had read it previously. I’m just saying it was not written by Adolf Hitler himself and it is AH’s views we were discussing. So you are the “dumbass” that you are calling me. Does calling yourself a “first generation german” (whatever that is) make any difference in your mentality? If you’re proud of your nationality, why not use your real name? Recommending Hermann Rauschning tells it all about you.

  1. Lurker

    January 23, 2013 at 1:37 am

    Christian Identity has got to be the stupidest ideology ever conceived that only could have emanated from the minds of mongrelized Americans with a poor sense of heritage and short cultural roots. Europeans most certainly did not originate in the middle east. Egyptians were hamites, Phoenicians were Semites. Both these groups, while not negroids, were also not white Aryan Europeans but of the swarthy caucasoid variety. Scythians and Persians were indeed white Indo-European Aryan Europoids who descended into Central Asia probably from somewhere further north, probably the Ukraine; not from the middle east. This Will Williams character claims that anybody who doesn’t accept his skewed view is believing the jew’s version of history, yet there are no serious White linguists, archaeologists, or historians from any White nation that would support his ramblings about Indo-Europeans originating from the middle east. He himself is not even an educated academic in any of these fields, but like all these CI “historians” takes words like “Brit-ish” and concocts some sort of hebrew extrapolations from them that have nothing to do with reality. Christian identity is a major failure and embarrassment to any would-be nascent pro-White identist movement.

  1. Obadiah 1:18

    January 23, 2013 at 2:32 am

    This rambunctious “discussion” serves only to prove that the gulf between White Nationalism and Christian Nationalism is too vast to cross. Christianity, Christian Identity, whatever you want to call it, will continue to be the dividing line in The Movement and never the twain shall meet.

    White Nationalism is a dead-end because it puts race before God. All of the endless, frequently conflicting babble among the various WN groups about what we need to do to get us out of this multi-racial mess has thus far amounted to a big fat nothing and will continue to do so. Our people can’t even agree on where to establish a white ethno-state or whether it’s better to stand our ground and fight the enemy on our home turf; good luck with that if you live in Detroit or LA.

    History is a tragic patchwork of rising and falling white nations. Greek, Roman, Egyptian, none of them lasted. You’d think we’d have got the picture by now but we haven’t. We still think we know better than God, provided we even acknowledge He exists, and that we can go it alone. If a great man like Adolf Hitler couldn’t set things right, then godless fools like Will Williams and Alex Linder sure can’t.

    By the way, what exactly is Williams’ claim to fame? Linder is famous for running a forum, I know that, but what does Williams do apart from slur his speech and take dictation from the ghost of Dr William Pierce?

    The Bible declares that if we turn to God He will cleanse our lands of the aliens that are infesting them. But things are going to have to get far worse, unimaginably worse, before that happens. In the meantime, The Movement will continue to disintegrate as more and more people grow disillusioned with its lack of traction and as the constant infighting intensifies. A house divided will fall. Good riddance to it, I say.

    P.S. “Pastor” Martin Lindstedt can call himself a Christian Identist all he likes, but that doesn’t make him one. Think of him more as a toothless, retarded Al Goldstein who’s seen one Cecil B. DeMille movie too many.

  1. EditorNEMW

    January 23, 2013 at 8:03 am

    “Atheism is the only world- or religious view that is not tolerated within the SS.”
    “I have not tolerated an atheist in the ranks of the SS. Every member has a deep faith in God, in what my ancestors called in their language Waralda, the ancient one, the one who is mightier than we are.” (Longerich, Heinrich Himmler, Oxford University Press, 2012, p. 220

  1. rodney

    January 23, 2013 at 10:17 am

    Carolyn, chances are your County Sheriff has already received a request from Sherif Heiss n Mo:
    “……..President Barack Obama continues to push gun control proposals in Washington D.C., Sheriff Charles M. Heiss, R-Johnson County is asking fellow law enforcers to sign and send this letter to the president……” click on “this letter” to get the letter.

    The Problem with this approach is County Sheriff’s DO NOT have jurisdiction in individual Cities within their Counties that are incorporated and that have their own Police Depts. Mos of these individual Police Depts have taken and do take a considerable amout of Homeland Security Grants and military equipment from DOJ and Homeland Security and to receive these “Grants” and equipment they must sign quid pro quos and other provisos with Uncle Sam. I encourage people to obtain copies via FOIA if your City, large, medium or small has received these federal goodies and look at the “Terms & Conditions”, specificall the reciprocal arrangements. Your local Police will enforce all federal Laws and edicts. We have been sleeping far too long.

  1. Carolyn

    January 23, 2013 at 10:26 am

    “Lurker” — you are using a name that already belongs to someone else on TWN comment section. You have been told before. You will not be allowed to comment here using this name anymore. The use of the name “Lurker” shows that you are just a coward anyway.

  1. Carolyn

    January 23, 2013 at 11:54 am

    Rodney and Will – I just checked in with my county sheriff’s office and learned there was a meeting – at a church! naturally – here tomorrow evening sponsored by the “Hill Country Patriots” on this very topic, with the sheriff speaking and taking questions. However, you are right that he’s not expected to be, as one patriot told me, “a constitutional sheriff” for the very reasons you stated. I called the organizer of the meeting, there are over 400 already signed up for seats, so I don’t think I could get a seat but I can’t attend anyway because I do “The International Jew Study Hour” program LIVE every Thursday. I’ve been put on their mailing list (the quiet one only, because on the active one you get about 20 emails a day !!), so I’ll be informed about announcements, etc. The organizer’s name is Ed Shuler, just the kind of name you’d expect, although unfortunately his family removed the “c” from their name (between the S and h). That’s how it goes in this highly “German” area of Texas. But he talks tough and says it’s up to the people to organize against the Obama Administration in Washington “trying to take our guns.” He also said, “We are Christian people.” They have over 300 people who regularly attend their weekly Thursday night “Patriots” meetings, which is pretty good. He’s going to try to film the meeting and make a DVD of it.

    I can always write letters to the editor of the local paper, and to the Sheriff himself – plus call his office.

  1. rodney

    January 23, 2013 at 4:32 pm

    The problem we as a people face was highlighted in this Show. We often would much rather fight one another than the real enemy and over silly issues. Interestingly, the two guests agreed on the issue of Race, but allowed personal issues of spirituality to so divide them that cooperation on the much more important larger issue is most likely imposssible, i.e.”I won’t do nothing with that SOB”. Compound this by the fact that another large portion of our people are so conditioned to either accept what the “System” says OR buys into the Marxist-Jewish line of Multiculturalism and will march to their own extinction with smiles on their face because they are doing their part to make things right for all the bad things they are told they are guilty of. What is the answer, we may well be past the point of no return.

  1. Will Williams

    January 23, 2013 at 6:07 pm

    @ Carolyn: “Alex’s views on Christianity are well known. So what would be the point, except to give recognition to his views, which I don’t share. I’m talking to him now about coming on this Saturday, but we can’t find a topic that we agree on.”

    Huh? My views on Christianity are well known — you described me to your followers as a “vehement foe” of the creed — and my views are pretty much in line with Linder’s. I knew you didn’t share my views on the subject but came on your show with Mr. Finck, my adversary, anyway. Why would you feel the need to have to agree with Linder on something to interview him about it, but not me? I’m perplexed. What’s to fear? Like you say, “he’s very pleasant and easy to talk with.”

    Will – since I am really pressed for time, I will answer you right here on your own comment. In boldface and as a quote. Since I just had you on about religion, I think that’s enough. No need to do the same thing all over again with Alex Linder. I don’t think he even wants to talk about that. Also, I didn’t expect you to treat Bill Finck as an “adversary.” I really thought you two could meet and talk in a civil fashion. (cy)

    I understand Linder holds himself well in debates, so why not let him and Finck go at it? If the “point” is to discuss the controversial issues that others shy away from and to thereby bring more people to your show, Linder can certainly do that by inviting VNNers who will spread the word far and wide, if given plenty of notice. The “division among WNs over religion *is* deeper than any other disagreement,” as you say. Why not address the issue head on and build some momentum from the last show? If you allow Linder to speak freely he will make a strong argument, and he won’t even “slur his words.”

    I was not intending a “debate” between you and Bill Finck, but you turned it into one, right from the beginning. I also am not appreciative of people telling me what kind of shows I should do.

    Thank you for informing Joshua that I’m no fool. He seems to think I’m not just a regular fool but a “damn fool” and a “clown with my head up the jews arse like no other.” Nice. BTW have you interviewed Obadiah 1:18? I’d like to hear him speak in his best diction about how “WN is a dead-end because it puts race before God.” With a name like Obadiah I assume that his god is Jehovah, the Jews’ tribal god. What a plan for White Jew-fighters! Tsk! tsk! Galatians 4:16

    Carolyn: “The organizer’s name is Ed Shuler, just the kind of name you’d expect…he talks tough and says it’s up to the people to organize against the Obama Administration in Washington ‘trying to take our guns.’ He also said, ‘We are Christian people.’ They have over 300 people who regularly attend their weekly Thursday night ‘Patriots meetings, which is pretty good.”

    I’m not so sure that 300 Christian patriots, led by Shuler, is all that good. Sounds like the Christian patriots I’ve encountered at the milquetoast Tea Party gatherings. If Shuler is in fact a Jew then the group is neutralized before it ever does anything: controlled opposition that will nip in the bud any discussion of Jews’ leading role in pushing gun confiscation. I went to high school with a despicable Yid by the name of Shuler. You are right to be suspicious of him until proven otherwise.

    These are the only people who are doing anything. They’re making the sheriff answer questions. But because they identify themselves as Christians they don’t count in your estimation. But what are you doing? You didn’t say.

    Carolyn, the weakest part of our interview/debate, to me, was between around the 28: minute mark to around 42: when I introduced _Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1945_ into the mix to make my case. That was actually the portion I had prepared for the most, yet you’d never know that by the way I couldn’t get a word in edgewise. I’d asked several men I consider experts in the subject, in advance, to give me their opinions on the validity of that book and received some sound advice from them. I wasn’t able to use what they sent me, however. The truth lays somewhere in the middle of extreme positions, it’s said, and I believe the following expert opinion I received about Conversations follows that rule:

    No name for this anonymous expert whose opinion you are giving, so no posting of it. Sorry. If you can’t put things in your own words, it’s not a comment.
    Table Talks is not a reliable source when it comes to the religious or biblical questions.

    Also, this ‘Lurker’ is not allowed here anymore unless he changes his name.

  1. Hadding

    January 23, 2013 at 8:45 pm

    “Atheism is the only world- or religious view that is not tolerated within the SS.”

    I don’t recall that there was any discussion in the show about whether Hitler was an atheist, only about whether or not he was a Christian believer. A deist, for example, may infer the being of some kind of God without accepting that the Bible is in any way reliable. Given the dichotomy that Hitler presents — “superior men” who are “philosophers,” vs. “masses” who are followers of “faith” — it is not hard to infer in which category Hitler placed himself.

  1. Todd

    January 24, 2013 at 12:23 pm

    Looks like William Finck is on his site libeling away on Williams and Hadding:

    I’ve not seen the later do the same to him. Finck delusionally brings up “Pagans”, when there was no one Pagan involved in the discussion.

  1. Carolyn

    January 24, 2013 at 2:04 pm

    Todd – this is his forum, not his “site.” Forums are like that. Look at VNN Forum and Stormfront. Everything is one-sided on those forums.

    I beg to differ on the Pagan issue. According to Bill Finck’s definition of pagan, they fit the bill (no pun intended). Pre-Christian beliefs, which Will and Hadding acknowledge preferring, are called Pagan.

    I am tired of these very partisan attacks being brought here and will not approve any more. If commenters don’t have something of substance to say, forget it. There is much of substance that could be said, and some has been.

  1. Lithobolos

    January 24, 2013 at 2:43 pm

    In the passage from Mein Kampf that Hadding constantly refers to, Hitler was not talking about Christianity, but about “the attack on the dogmatic principles underlying ecclesiastical teaching”. That is a reference to what we call “Churchianity” which has nothing to do with Christianity itself. Hitler was a Christian, and there are a long line of intelligent Christian men who do not need Churchianity in order to lead good lives, which is what Hitler was pointing out here. Rightly, Hitler assesses that the masses need Churchianity for guidance in their lives, and therefore Churchianity – which is the dogmas of the religious denominations – is a necessary component in the lives of the people.

    Hadding Scott’s primary failure in assessing Christianity is his steadfast refusal to separate it from Churchianity, which is the dogmas of men that the denominations attach to their faith, but not the Faith itself. Until Hadding does this, he will forever be a failure whenever he attempts to comment on these topics.

  1. Hadding

    January 24, 2013 at 6:58 pm

    Hadding Scott’s primary failure in assessing Christianity is his steadfast refusal to separate it from Churchianity….

    You are making a distinction that I do not believe is relevant in what I quoted from Mein Kampf.

    Ultimately Hitler established government-subsidies for the two major denominations in Germany, Lutheran and Catholic (churchianity in your terms), in exchange for their pledges to stay out of politics.

  1. Carl

    January 24, 2013 at 7:19 pm

    To amplify Lithobolus’ remarks: Hitler’s concern about Churchianity was nonetheless protective of Christianity. Note that he was opposed to the “attack against dogma [which] is comparable to an attack against the general laws on which the State is founded.” When Hitler criticizes “The purely spiritual idea [which] is of itself a changeable thing that may be subjected to endless interpretations,” he sounds rather unlike a deist. When Hitler comments on “those who have encumbered the ideal of religion with purely material accessories and have thus given rise to an utterly futile conflict between religion and science,” I don’t think he intends to discard Jesus, but rather only extraneous theological conclusions such as perhaps whether the earth is flat (just to give one obvious example). Also we can’t fault Hitler for not being perfect. And the Jewish assault on the Catholic faith known as Vatican II certainly coincides in time with a notable downturn in morals, even if the problems have other antecedents. Even if the Catholic faith is much more magic- and ritual-oriented than what Jesus said was necessary, it was a good trainer of souls and served as a racial bulwark or rampart. I think that was partly incidental….. But anyway. Hitler doesn’t seem to be a deist who believed that Christianity was mere churchly delusion.

  1. Carl

    January 24, 2013 at 7:33 pm

    Looking over more samples from MK, I can see that Hitler spoke very harshly of the organized churches, that they were effectively allowing the collapse of the race. But still, he doesn’t seem to be a deist. The CI view is that the organized churches are erroneous, often or even normally run by Jews to corrupt us as much as possible. My sense is that Hitler reached toward a true understanding of Christianity, of our nature and of God’s nature. Looking through all the rhetoric and political problems, it’s a little hard to get a clear view. He had a correct Christian sense of racial sharing, protectiveness, and fruitfulness.

  1. Todd

    January 24, 2013 at 8:39 pm


    I think that Hadding was just trying to make a point. As far as I am aware Hadding and Williams are not pagans. They follow Creativity, which is different (Hadding can correct me if I am wrong though).

    I agree with you on the one-sidedness though of those forums. You are absolutely correct about that.

    - Todd

  1. Todd

    January 24, 2013 at 8:41 pm


    Oh yes, there was one more thing I forgot to mention. The nazis practiced something called “Positive Christianity”. You can read about it here: I was sort of amazed that none of the guests even brought this up.

    - Todd.

  1. Hadding

    January 24, 2013 at 9:52 pm

    I have no connection to the Church of the Creator. I am not Christian but I am not militantly anti-Christian. My intervention in the show was not to attack Christianity but to establish an accurate picture of Adolf Hitler’s views.

    I am not worried about being called a Pagan. It is probably true that this word carries a derogatory connotation among Christian fanatics, but they are a tiny group.

  1. Carolyn

    January 24, 2013 at 10:53 pm

    Todd, You can rest assured that everyone on the program is aware of “Positive Christianity” in spite of the fact it didn’t come up. Not everything can come up.

  1. Carl

    January 24, 2013 at 11:11 pm

    Here is another way to formulate the matter. Debates about Hitler’s views of Christianity resemble debates about the Founders of the USA. Some say they were deist because they criticized organized religion, and others observe that they attended church and spoke well of the influence of Christianity. Like all great leaders, Hitler was imperfect, but he saw the value and the flaws that were to be found in his times. What CI does is to clarify what “Christianity” really is. From there, we discover that to varying degrees, people reflect this correct understanding, in their statements and actions. What we discover is that Hitler’s ideas about racial solidarity, the nature of original sin, and the interest of God in the outcome, were quite prescient and accurate. Without intending it perhaps, Hitler was essentially an Identist.

    In other words, CI says, “Christianity is the following ideas and facts. And in fact these people acted and had ideas consistent with that: X, Y, Z.” Then the reply comes, “But X, Y, and Z hated Christianity!” This reply misses the point, and overemphasizes the points on which X, Y, and Z objected to precisely those aspects of Christianity-as-it-was, which are inconsistent with what CI has discovered Christianity to be.

    This article by Mr. Finck offers some helpful quotes:

    At the very end of Chapter II of MK, Hitler writes, “In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of The Lord,” an unprompted phrasing that goes well beyond any deist conception of metaphysical and practical realities, and essentially relies upon the Christian conception. Since Hitler couldn’t have known at that point how successful he would be, and given his staunch idealism–going so far as to proclaim that other political parties were unnecessary–he had a free hand, and every reason, to ignore the popularity of ideas. So if he says he is doing the work of the Lord, then I take at his word that that’s how he really saw it.

  1. Shackleton

    January 25, 2013 at 12:56 am

    After some reflection, one tends towards a synthesis of these views.

    A darwinist such as Kevin McDonald has observed

    The White race has “a biological tendency towards Universalism and naive Idealism,” which can cause us to become our own worst enemy…and attract like a powerful magnet certain re-occuring peoples who take full advantage of this biological tendency. The Holy Bible and 2000 years of Christendom is overflowing with example after example of how this led to making unwise decisions…The White race needs to practice the authentic Christianity as it was always intended to be practiced as an exclusivist faith for the House of Jacob.

    Thanks Carolyn and guests, I really enjoyed the show!

  1. Charlemagne

    January 25, 2013 at 9:51 am

    Now you see why the West (even the world) should have a common Universal faith. Once nations/people can share a general metaphysical concept, there’d be no longer a need to fight over it. People can then align by their ethnicity/culture/nation. The Church should be the central nervous system (of morality). If every white went back to the Holy Roman Catholic model, then we could concentrate on racial issues without the added division.

    Today’s Whites are rootless nothings chasing fantasy in one way or another.

  1. Fred Streed

    January 25, 2013 at 7:31 pm

    Pastor Bill Finck made a big deal about how much of the moral values and spirituality in xtianity are contained in much of classical literature. I would have to wonder, this being the case, just what xtianity brings to the table that has any value for our struggle for White survival. This is without even going into the teachings of xtianity that AREN’T contained in the general currents of Classical, or any other European Pagan thought (which is one of the things that worry me about bible “morality”.

    I think Reverend Will’s biological racism requires much less mental gymnastics than any of the xtian arguments I have heard so far, and so I will go with that. Occam’s razor and all that! But hey, I’m just a simple old country boy. I really don’t care to waste my time distorting history in order to prove we are “the true xtians”, disregarding science and common sense to “disprove” evolution, or worrying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

  1. Carl

    January 25, 2013 at 9:46 pm

    In the 25 Jan Christogenea show, “Transcending Materialism”, based on an interview regarding this article, Mr. Finck went into some detail about the various classical religions which were White, and later perverted by the other races after race-mixing occurred. So for example, Buddha was an Aryan. CI is akin to a detective work, unraveling the mysteries of accretion and misdirection. To the extent that the classical literatures were White, then they signal something about our nature, that we can take seriously. The fundamental idea is transcendence. Warrior creeds, druids, wizards, Greek priests, valhalla, and lots of other things embodied our true nature. The 1400-year period of Christianity was an expression of this, although of course with interference. In other words the objective is to unravel the truth about our origins and nature. To say that it amounts to mental gymnastics would be like saying, of a murder committed 50 years ago, that unraveling the facts and lies is unimportant if everyone has accepted the common story. CI says no, we must get to the truth of the matter. The Jews distort transcendence and promote ugly materialism, because they have no spiritual future. Aryans are forever. They have always believed in transcendence. Oddly, thanks to the distortions wrought by the Jews, Whites now believe that non-Whites have the best understanding of transcendence!

  1. Alexander from Flanders

    January 26, 2013 at 1:34 am

    It is rather sad to see that religion is the cause of so many problems within the movement (wathever you want to call it). Things always get heated whenever religion comes up.

    I personally HATE the church (the institution). Yet; I like William Finck, and I have respect for him and for what he is trying to do. Isn’t that strange? I liked it when Mister Finck said that many people are christian without realizing it. And that the rituals are basically not christian. I really like that.

    As a young teen I was heavily involved in the black metal movement (during the 90′s, and I still listen to the music). The more I learned of what the church had done in Europe through the centuries…the more I hated them. I also became a serious racialist at that time.

    Today I can deal with “racial christians” (if they can respect my beliefs, and accept the fact that I will not join their religion, not ever), but I despise the average -zombie- christian. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but there you have it.

    I also want to say that I’m part German, and that even my Flemish family was heavily involved with NS during WW2. Now my Flemish grandmother (almost 90 years old), who was a nurse in Germany (she had to clean up after the bombardments, worked with wounded soldiers, her German partner died in combat: lot’s of interesting stories in my family), she has the same attitude towards christianity as Mister Finck when it comes to the rituals. She hates the organized church, and she always says that those priest guys know nothing.

    PS. Here is a link to a organisation in my country that studies our ancient pre-christian beliefs and traditions:

    Here is German group:

    Here are some English articles from Asatru:

    Here is a site of a famous black metal artiest and his interesting views:

  1. Hadding

    January 26, 2013 at 12:54 pm

    I liked it when Mister Finck said that many people are christian without realizing it.

    Yes, he said that Hadding might be a good Christian, which would be a big surprise to me, since I totally distrust the Bible. I think that a man named Jesus may have lived, and he may have been crucified because of Jewish agitation, but I doubt that all the alleged details of his life and all the words attributed to him in the Gospels are accurate, and I definitely am suspicious of Saul-Paul’s motives. The Old Testament for various reasons has even less credibility as an historical record. I agree with Voltaire, who found the Old Testament non-credible as history and the heroes of that storybook not even particularly admirable. I also agree with Schopenhauer, that Christian doctrine carries a heavy influence from Platonism (and its derivatives like Stoicism).

    If I can be “a good Christian” despite thinking that way, then obviously Hitler could be one too. It was always my understanding that the New Testament contained some demand for faith in certain claims (not just living in a way that is consistent with the widespread form of morality that Christianity happens to share), but maybe I was wrong about that….

  1. Carl

    January 26, 2013 at 8:53 pm

    Voltaire may have been just another Jew, toying with White things. His historical criticism, that I see from your link, includes the idea that Pharaoh had no horses after the plague on livestock; but there would have been an interval, and governments always figure out how to get more armaments and such. Faith is certainly difficult, even today. Even having faith in our race is difficult. For example, when you see a beautiful Aryan woman calmly standing in a food store line with her pet negro, do you say anything? Even despite the examples of past warriors, even despite valhalla, even despite the ample belief in transcendence our race has always embraced, do you say anything? Nor do I. We are unwilling to risk a confrontation, despite witnessing another impending disaster. So it’s a lack of faith. Early Christians were being thrown to the lions. They needed faith to believe.

    And our helplessness in seeing the locusts devour our land and children is amply projected in the unreliable Old Testament.

    It might be a good idea to outline twenty questions for Mr. Finck, and see if he will agree to come on and answer them, perhaps in a special program titled “Christian Identity: Useful Paradigm, Wishful Thinking, or Irrelevant Mischief?”

  1. Hadding

    January 26, 2013 at 11:53 pm

    No, Voltaire was not a Jew. Nobody claims that.

  1. Carl

    January 27, 2013 at 12:17 am

    Incidentally I don’t mean to sell you short! You may be braver than I. I was once a little bit brave. A negro was yelling at an elderly White woman in a parking lot, claiming a dinged fender incident. I wandered over to see if I might be of any use toward sanity. The negro was unsuccessful in its (sorry, I refer to them as “its” where possible” lol!) attempt to extract [more] money from the White (beyond the political extractions, that is). But the negro was then locomoting around a store, using a cell phone. I am certain that the intent was to call in an air strike. This is what negroes do now. When they feel hurt, they phone their coracialists and see if a group response might be possible to organize.

    I think asking Mr. Finck about faith would be a very good idea. For example, what exactly are we supposed to have faith in? I think that the answer from CI is that we have been punished by not being aware of our true identity. We were to forget our identity for many centuries. I mean, God could just make the whole thing bloody obvious, but that wouldn’t be much of a test for us, after our sins of race-mixing early on. Basically what God wants is for us to “come out of her, my people”, meaning out of the non-Adamite people. And of course we refuse. We trade short-term benefits and ignore long-term costs.

    If you are suspicious about Paul/Saul, you would be interested in Mr. Finck’s current series about the “Paul bashers”.

    My opinion is that, if it is true, CI is the last stage of waking up. First you realize that we don’t really enjoy self-determination as a people any more. Well, first you realize that the government doesn’t behave reasonably. Then you start to see through conspiracies, which leads you to “who” questions. From there you can see that the “who” questions apply to many other situations, and you become Jew/racially aware. Eventually you see that the “who” questions point right back to you, and who you are. That’s CI. If it’s true. I am impressed by the solidity of the research and the completeness of the viewpoint. Keep in mind that White people long held the Bible in high esteem. It’s only recently, with a lot of coincidental Jewish influence, that Whites have the notion that maybe it’s just a lot of superstition.

  1. Carl

    January 27, 2013 at 2:17 pm

    Questions that can be adapted for a special show:

    Most students of ancient literature are not accustomed to considering that it was written by White people. Can you give us an overview of ancient literature with a view to clarifying its authorship?

    Are any non-White essays of use to us?

    You say that some essential ideas for our race are found in the literature that turns out to be ours. Are there ideas that are incorrect as well?

    Many people assume that the area in northern Africa and the middle east were not White, but swarthy. What can you tell us about White population movements over time? Why should we believe that those areas were places where we lived?

    Interpreting the Bible through a racial lens seems novel. Why should we do that, and why should we trust your methods?

    Why can’t we believe in creation itself and bypass any ideas that require belief, or examination of the unseen?

    Religion usually involves some kind of beliefs, including a narrative about things we cannot directly verify. Can you tell us what you believe happened to bring us, and other people, about, and what God’s purpose must be? What is the point of it all? And what if Whites don’t agree about the narrative?

    Which came first: Christianity or morality?

    Why racialize Christianity? Wouldn’t it be better to focus on what Whites can all agree on?

    What has been the Jewish influence on the self-knowledge of White people, especially in the area of religion?

    Introduce us to the Bible, especially for those of us, such as Voltaire, who regard it as unreliable history, superstition, risible, and hopelessly murky.

    How can we think intelligently about how God regards race? Why must we think about it at all?

    Discuss for us the best way to reason about the religious stances of various famous leaders, such as Hitler, Jefferson, Lincoln, or any other non-Jewish notable. We always seem to get stuck on what we mean by “Christianity”.

    You recently said that a principal idea in our racial literature is transcendence. How is this idea distorted by Jews and other non-Whites? How should we integrate the idea of transcendence into our thinking?

  1. Fallout Shelter 7

    January 29, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    Great show Carolyn.I really enjoyed your two guests.I hope you have them on again sometime.

    I have tried numerous times to comment on this episode,but I end up ranting and lecturing about the origins, horrors and prophesies of Christianity and the bible.

    So I will just say that I don’t think Christianity belongs in the White Nationalist movement.Even if we rewrite the bible,make Jesus a White man and replace “Greater Israel” with an Aryan promised land.The bible does not fit in with the survival of our race.

    The bible is Jewish Nationalism,judaised astrotheology and judaised paganism.It is an alien religion.It is not for the White man.

    White people had their own religions and Gods until the Christians killed them. As a White Nationalist,I believe we should rediscover our pagan religions and our pagan Gods. Otherwise our white nations will not be fully realized,but be forever judaised.

    I have tried to E-mail you many times Carolyn at and but I cannot connect to you for some reason.

    You are doing excellent work Carolyn.Keep it up.

  1. Carl

    February 2, 2013 at 10:22 pm

    I just wanted to say that the discussion tonight (Feb 2) on Christogenea was fascinating and educational. Thank you for your efforts. It relates to this thread so I thought I’d thank you here.

  1. Carolyn

    February 2, 2013 at 11:32 pm

    Thanks Carl. I really enjoyed it too. Bill was in top form, I thought. He had me believing. :-)