Saturday Afternoon: Libel, Slander, Defamation on the Internet

Published by carolyn on Sat, 2012-09-01 18:00

Sept. 1, 2012

Bill Finck of  is Carolyn’s guest in the first hour to discuss the ADL-directed campaign to bully and bribe Internet Service Providers (ISP’s) to deny service to White Nationalist, Holocaust Revisionist and Christian web sites that expose the truth about the Jews. Bill recently had to move all of his sites to new servers with another company. Because this is an ongoing campaign by the Anti-Defamation League, the discussion was about how to combat it. Finck suggests creating a vehicle representing our “shared core principles” – a defamation league of our own – with a common face fighting on a common front, no matter which of the three above named groups we most identify with.

In the second hour, Carolyn Yeager presents her side of the story in the midst of the accusations and finger-pointing following the apparent demise of Voice of Reason Network.  She describes her long slide toward complete disenchantment with VOR, her leave-taking, and her subsequent non-personal criticism concerning the loss of White values at the network (as she perceives it).

Apologies for the wierd ending; the outro music was not audible to Carolyn.  Definitions:

Libel: A published false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation; a written defamation.

Slander: The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person’s reputation.

Defamatory: calumniatory: (used of statements) harmful and often untrue; tending to discredit or malign.


61 Responses

  1. Phil

    September 1, 2012 at 8:00 pm

    Finck suggests creating a vehicle representing our “shared core principles” – a defamation league of our own – with a common face fighting on a common front…”

    It’s high time. Let those of us who know how to put together an European-American Defense League (name tentative) do so. If I knew how to, I would, but I don’t. Surely someone reading this has the know how and talent to do so. These ongoing attacks from these very aggressive Jewish supremacist bullies must not be allowed to continue!


  1. Carolyn

    September 1, 2012 at 8:56 pm

    Phil, I’m glad you like the idea. I do too. It’s usually found that the one who wants something done, is the one best suited to doing it. Who else is there?

  1. Carolyn

    September 1, 2012 at 9:03 pm

    gerry asks on this Counter-Currents comment thread today:

    So counter currents wants to “take over VOR”?

    I’m just wondering how different it will be on counter-currents….

    Greg, you know you really can’t stop trolls, do you?

    I suggest the hosts grow a thick [white] skin and deal with it, because trolls are a fact of life, thanks to degenerate left wingers….[of whom some of your writers ironically supported back in their hippy days.]

    Greg Johnson
    Posted September 1, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    No, we are not “taking over” VOR. VOR is dead. We are creating a new network that will give a place to
    some of the hosts from VOR as well as new shows that are in development.

    Much will be different from VOR, in terms of both the technical infrastructure and the offerings.

    If I had my way, it would all sound like the SNL parody of NPR, “Delicious Dish.” You know: anemic vegetarian hosts who sound like they are on quaaludes, breathlessly speaking about Evola and Guenon. Fortunately, Matt Parrott is going to be managing the new network, so there will be red meat on the menu.

    Not sure how trolls are the responsibility of the Left. I hate to say it, but in terms of dishonesty and sheer insanity, the WN “community” is worse than any Jews I have ever had dealings with. Food for thought.

    Greg has lost his battle to become a leader in the White Nationalist community (he’s been found out) so his next step is to reject the WN “community” as being “worse than Jews.” Gee, he’s stealing my line that homosexuals are as bad as Jews are for the community.
    Is it possible that Greg and his fellow queers – along with Matt Parrott – destroyed Voice of Reason, and now they can start afresh as the new kid on the block of New Right Radio? Food for thought.

  1. The White Network Peanut Gallery

    September 1, 2012 at 11:27 pm

    Some posters comment here, imo, without actually having listened to the podcast. For the record, I don’t post unless I have listened to Carolyn Yeager and/or Tanstaafl.

    That said, you are spot on regarding Greg Johnson. He does NOT tolerate any objection from anyone, at anytime. (he’s a freakin’ “doctor”, dontcha know ;>) Believe it or not, he even bans his own writers from posting on his website, if they disagree with him!

    About one hour and fifteen minutes into your show, you mention Don Pauley. Pauley is very detailed when it comes to facts. Usually, you can trust what he says. He investigated attorney Edgar Steele, and uncovered how Steele lied and cheated his fans, but that’s another story. You really should invite Pauley onto your show. “Karl Radl”, though, is another matter. He’s a nobody and a nothing, and is constantly being slapped down on VNN Forum. Ignore him.

    Oh, and “Andrew”, from Counter Currents. He’s a sycophant of Greg Johnson’s, and strikes me as being a bit light in the loafers. But those are the kinds of creeps Greggy surrounds himself with. So stick to your guns. You’re the reasonable, rational one here. You’re standing up to the “gay movement” infiltrating the WN movement with each passing day, and no one else is. If I was a black woman, I’d say: You go, girl!

    As for Mike Connor, I don’t know what to think. I just think he got in over his head, and simply didn’t have the talent and the work ethic to keep VOR going. Personally, he should never be allowed to work in WN podcasting again. Thank god for The White Network, the only WN radio I listen to except for Harold Covington’s Northwest Podcasts.

    Can’t wait to your next show. (get Don Pauley on your show!)

    @Carolyn: I’m a bit concerned about the possible background of your current guest. He’s a Jew, correct? I mean, he does sound Jewish to me, and his last name…well, here’s a link and tell me what you think. If I’m wrong, that’s okay. I would just like you to comment:

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 12:02 am

    Peanut Gallery – Bill Finck (not Fink) is not a Jew and I think you know that, so you are up to something. He lives in, and is from, New York State.

    FYI, The White Network has a no-Jew policy, and that includes program guests.

    I know Don Pauley from way back, around 2007. Is it that this VNN Karl Radl is just copying the name of the real Karl Radl, or is he the real one?

    I like what you say about Greg Johnson, though. Why does he get so much respect from so many? Even Alex Linder can’t quite let it go. Is it because most of us don’t even know what he looks like? I’ve been told he’s nondescript.

  1. Rodney Martin

    September 2, 2012 at 12:37 am

    AIFJ = Association for Intellectual Freedom & Justice. I would propose a COOP, such as this, where any White Nationalist, whether Organization or individual, including Revisionists, would pay dues into. The sole purpose of this COOP would be to have sufficient funds so as to be able to retain Counsel to defend our people’s interests, i.e. sue ISP’s for breech of Contract, file Claims against the SPLC for frivilous suits, file Amicus Briefs in pending litigations that impact our people and defend our people’s interests in issues such as Homeschooling, Religious Rights, Political Rights, et al. The Association would have to provide financial reports each year to all members, so as to be transparent, and its Mission & Scope would be clearly defined. It should NOT be an SPLC, which has discredited itself, nor a ADL clone.

    Anything like an SPLC or ADL within WN will never develop as the groups and individuals will argue over their various ideologies and jockey for position at the expense of the mission. The plethora of WN Groups are too Americanized, i.e. American WN are really screaming Libertarians, to be able to check their differences at the door in favor of larger objectives. This is why we have failed.

    The fundamental problem within the White Nationalist Movement, IF we can even call it that, which we really cannot with any degree of intellectual honesty, is that Unity in favor of a greater objective always falls prey to egoism, internal personality issues, and attempts by grand poobahs to become millionaires off the venture.

    In short, we need a strong, focused, offensive entity so our intellectuals can do what they do best.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 2, 2012 at 10:11 am

    European-American Defense League. I like that one, too bad it doesn’t spell DEAL though. Smile

    That being said, we are all on board with doing battle with the monster, but as Bill says, he is doing it from his spot alone, I have gone from running my own little website to using Facebook to spread the info, Rodney is running his own site and doing some extra curricular work. What the ADL has that we don’t is money, so they can pay people to do their dirty work 247. I am working like a dog to make ends meet and am still desperately fighting to keep afloat while doing this. Someone needs to be the focal point for building an organization, to collect funds, to organize press releases, white papers to law enforcement agencies as the Jews do, lead focussed attacks on Jewish targets of opportunity like Pollard, etc. If no one wants to be the person in the hot seat, I will do it, but I need some guidance as to how to set it up.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 10:32 am

    David – don’t take offense, but if you need guidance, you’re not the person. Smile It will develop. Give it time and input.

    How about something like Save Our Free Speech … or Defenders of Free Speech in America.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 12:55 pm


    Your guest, Mr. Finck, presented a view in which all non-Christian WNs were assumed to be atheists. He then called for racial unity with the atheists, while referring to their position as “idiotic”.

    If I didn’t know better, I’d think Mr. Finck appeared on your show in violation of his Sabbath.

  1. Hadding Scott

    September 2, 2012 at 2:33 pm

    “Karl Radl” is from the UK. He was on with Deanna Spingola a few weeks back.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 2:40 pm

    Jimmy Marr – What do you know about Bill Finck, anything? Have you looked him up? He’s easy to find:

    He did not say that all non-Christians were atheists; he simply compared Christians and atheists. You are correct in your next sentence: “He then called for racial unity with the atheists, while referring to their position as “idiotic”.” That stood out to me when I listened to the show afterward, and he can and should be criticized for that. It is, however, a fault of both sides that, while they say we should all work together, they can’t refrain from wanting to convince the other of their own views, which they see as the only sensible or “right” ones.

    He correctly said that in order to work together we have to leave our differences outside the meeting room door. Then he failed to do so. In his defense, I’ll say that he was a guest on the show; he saw it as his opportunity to present his religious ideas to the audience — which is exactly what Will Williams did when he was on my program. I interrupted and countered some of what Bill was saying on that part of the program … and he let me and was gracious about it. The same goes for Will.

    As to Bill Finck being Jewish, or “thinking Jewish”, that is totally ridiculous. I know him well. You don’t even say what you base your “thinking” on. Is it that he is a committed Christian and in your view Christianity is Jewish?? Does it follow that all Christians are Jews?

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 2:58 pm

    But Hadding, is that guy on VNNF the real Karl Radl? I guess so because he’s posted some long historical commentary on VNNF that I’ve seen. KR has been a guest of Deanna Spingola quite a few times and he never talked like this guy on VNNF, LOL. 

    This KR is totally disgusting and I will never take him seriously again. He’s lying when he swears he saw in a “blurb” somewhere (??) something that Tanstaafl was discussing with me (Yeager) about race-mixing. There never was anything even close to that in any blurb I ever wrote for any of my shows. When he couldn’t come up with it as requested, he resorts to saying it must have been changed! What a loser!

    Deanna has a lot of people on who she doesn’t know much about, but tells her listeners how “wonderful” they are. She should take a look at what he posts at VNNF, along with his avatar and his “signature” saying. She would blanch.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 3:07 pm

    I wonder if we WNs, in general, don’t need to be constantly on guard against a temptation to out-Jew the Jews, or in the case of Christian Identists, out-Abraham the Abrahamists.

    If the urge to create a White ADL is a manifestation of this tendency, we might do less harm by contenting ourselves with the outing of queers. It’s less expensive and more entertaining, which, for all I know, might make it more White.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 4:27 pm

    It’s a manifestation of wanting to put up a defense for our right-now quite defenseless position. You would rather huff and puff about religion, I guess.

    You did not answer my questions.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 4:41 pm

    Carolyn Yeager: “Is it that he is a committed Christian and in your view Christianity is Jewish?? Does it follow that all Christians are Jews?”

    Yes. I see Christians as extended Jewish phenotypes, and I see Christian Identists as being particularly egregious specimens.

    It creeps me out as badly to witness White folks expressing Jew-envy as it does to watch Brother Nathaniel pretend to be White.

    I have no interest in co-habiting any kind of tent whatsoever with them.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 5:26 pm

    Christian Identity is not based on “Jew-envy.” It is, as I understand, based on the bible and historical accounts of the time. It crosses out the Jew by showing him to be a minor player during the period. You are the one who is believing the Jew narrative and putting the Jews in the prime position, where they love to be.

    However, please note that I do not embrace Christian Identity beliefs, so I am not going to try to explain or defend it. I more and more think that German National-Socialist ideas provide me with all I need. I like the strong racialist aspects of CI. If you would really like to be educated about CI, Bill Finck’s website is the best place for it. Although I’m sure you would rather remain ignorant and just continue in your totally ANTI-Christian mindset.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Carolyn Yeager: “I more and more think that German National-Socialist ideas provide me with all I need.”

    I like this idea too, and for National Socialists who wish to reinforce their political belief system with a mythological dimension, I entertain hopes for the elaboration of Esoteric National Socialism, which is currently being prevented by legal issues surrounding the publishing rights for English translations of Miguel Serrano’s books on that subject.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    I don’t like Esoteric National-Socialism at all. That’s taking N-S and turning it into something else. I don’t like Miguel Serrano, either.

  1. Hadding Scott

    September 2, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    But Hadding, is that guy on VNNF the real Karl Radl?

    The real Karl Radl was one of Otto Skorzeny’s subordinates.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 8:28 pm

    Alright! So I don’t think much of this person who is hanging out in New York City while he hates the Jews so much. I guess the better to research them? This is from his website Semitic Controversies (which is overly clumsy to maneuver on).

    Karl Radl is the internet pseudonym of a New York-based author, academic researcher and perpetual student who holds various degrees in business and modern history (with a side interest in anthropology) and has published several articles and a book or two. Karl was raised and educated in England, but after meeting his then wife-to-be; a German-American, he emigrated to be with her in New York: where they are looking to start a family.

    He first developed an interest in the jews several years ago when he came across the concept of jewish ritual murder and started researching the case of Saint Simon of Trent in 1475. This lead to his break with the skeptic community who demanded adherence to what Karl regards as a nonsense intellectual position that the jews could; in effect, do no wrong and that per force the charges against the jews of Trent must have been invented.

    Karl has made it his life’s work to revive anti-Semitism as a critical and credible alternative to the state-sponsored philo-Semitism of current academe and pop-intellectuals. Karl’s current research interests focus primarily on German anti-Semitism 1871-1945, Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevara, the Ritual Murder trial of Mendel Beilis from 1911-1913 and Graeco-Roman paganism.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    “I don’t like Esoteric National-Socialism at all… I don’t like Miguel Serrano, either.”

    This quote exemplifies what I admire most about you, Carolyn. It strikes me as quintessentially Aryan in nature. It’s absolutely self-contained and indisputable. It relies on nothing but the organic strength of visceral conviction.

    As if spoken from the soles of your feet, it shows complete disregard for my concurrence.

    If, by contrast, you had claimed to have read and understood all 40 volumes of Serrano’s work (let alone 7,000 years of history), which thereby rendered my opinion idiotic, I would not hold your response in such high esteem.

    I don’t like Christian Identity, and I don’t like Bill Finck.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 9:50 pm

    I didn’t ask you to like anything. And I didn’t call Serrano a Jew because I don’t like him. I have looked into Esoteric National Socialism, and Serrano too, and it just didn’t appeal to me. In fact, it really turned me off. So I didn’t look any further.

    BTW, tell Alex Linder that I am not CI and never have been. I’ve explained my position on that a number of times. People like Eric Hunt have tried to insist that I was, in spite of my own denial; Eric is just another one who says things because it fits the puzzle he’s trying to put together. Alex ought not to depend on his questionable posters for knowing what’s what and who’s what.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 2, 2012 at 10:01 pm

    I read some of the other comments after posting my last and was struck , or BLUDGEONED by Jim Marr’s statements. This is EXACTLY the problem we face trying to BUILD a movement. And his comments are a perfect example of being overly reactionary because of personal bias. Bill may have called atheists idiots, but he sees that as a personal shortcoming that can be overlooked not just for the cause, but because if you are morally upright, calling yourself a Christian or Buddhist or atheist doesn’t matter quite as much as attaching and professing your Christian beliefs. Mr. Marr clearly states he wouldn’t have anything to do with Bill. (Not for nothing, but all the people I know named Marr are Jews.) I’d also like to add that MOST White people at least consider themselves to be Christian, whether philo-Semitic or not. Are we to carry out this war, and it is a war, with only a tiny clique of atheists? I think not. I would rather have Bill and CI in our corner to provide some alternative for White Christians to see that there is indeed another way, a BETTER way, of looking at the Bible and their heritage than the mainstream way. I was agnostic most of my life as Christianity was not imposed on me, I considered myself spiritual and moral and felt that there COULD be something greater out there. Looking at all of the different sects and their histories of fighting each other I was sure that none of them could possibly have it right if they were missing the most important point of Christian thought, love thy brother. Mr. Marr does not appear to love his brother in this case, while Bill apparently does, even though he has an opinion of his brother’s outlook. I have a blood brother and he is indeed an idiot, in more ways than one, BUT, he is my brother and if he needed me I would be there for him.

    The Jews have us beat on this, they are all across the board in spirituality, and plenty of other issues, but they circle the wagons when it comes to being JEWS. If Mr. Marr finds it objectionable to out Jew the Jews, then he has a problem with circling the wagons because he is a universalist at heart and doesn’t have his heart in this fight. I find THAT objectionable.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 2, 2012 at 10:13 pm

    All that being said, there are other players that can be somewhat irritating in the dimension of anti-Christian bigots, such as Wotanists. Talk about a cult of tiny dimensions. I have had several run ins with them on Facebook as well, and their attitude is also that Christianity is Semitic and that Semitic is alien and that adherents of any form of Xianity (as they call it) are akin to Jews. I’d like to point out that Viking types were still raiding and killing their fellow Whites while wars raged in Southern Europe and the Middle East and Eastern Europe against the other races to keep them OUT of Europe, including Scandinavia. If we do not stand together, we will (and have been) falling separately. We lost Greece, we lost Rome, Byzantium, Spain, Portugal, some of the Balkans, to aliens who left their taint on parts of Europe. Now the Jews have opened the doors to them to just walk right into Ireland, Sweden, Finland, everywhere.

    So Mr. MARR, and people who think like him, when are you going to get off your high horse and commit to the pan-Aryan cause? When you are the only White man left?

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 10:16 pm

    “BTW, tell Alex Linder that I am not CI and never have been. I’ve explained my position on that a number of times.”

    I don’t have Alex’s ear, and I haven’t read anything by anyone about you being C.I..

    I did, however, just read a post by Alex that I think has some bearing on the perspective I have attempted to portray in this thread:

    “I stand second to no man in my detestation of the rancid nescience that is religion. But I love me a good fairytale. It is my assertion and contention that fairytales such as the following reflect and promote true Aryan spirituality. Which is nothing more than a way of taking the world: succumbing to its magic without denying its reality.”

    The White Snake

    A long time ago there lived a king who was famed for his wisdom
    through all the land. [...]

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 2, 2012 at 10:35 pm

    Lastly, I forgot to mention that I DO embrace CI, gladly. Bill has managed to align the Biblical, ancient secular writings and archaeological records so that they make sense with each other. In my estimation, people that reject Christianity do so out of ignorance, much the same way the most ardent Judeo-Christian types can believe the most asinine notions that refute archaeology all together, such as dinosaurs. We Whites come from somewhere. With great sheets of ice covering most of Europe 20,000 – 30,000 years ago, it is obvious we came from the equatorial climes of the Mediterranean basin, Middle East, North Africa, where monuments to our existence still stand and were indeed BUILT FOR THAT REASON. I believe that part of the reason people reject the Bible is that it is not an entirely NOBLE history of our people. Then, as now, we had plenty of scoundrels and treacherous criminal types. These atheists and especially Wotanists would like to believe that we are and have always been noble creatures without moral shortcomings, and that is simply not true. The Jews would not be in control of us today if many or most of us were not tragically flawed. When I see the true children of God being referred to as SHEEP, and I look across the mass of our people today, the word sheep fits only too well. I don’t think anyone even remotely involved with our cause would ever refer to a Jew as a sheep. Jews have never been sheep. They are most certainly the goats. But I guess you’d have to know the Bible to even understand the alliteration. WHich people like Mr. Marr do not.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 10:37 pm

    EditorNEMWA: “I’d also like to add that MOST White people at least consider themselves to be Christian”

    This is where we differ, Editor. I don’t care what MOST think, which is why I don’t feel compelled to build a big tent movement. To do so is to rely on the reign of quantity.

    I believe that we are in a phase of development where it is necessary to struggle against one another ideologically in order to weed out weaker ideas. When a single idea emerges, whose time has come, everything else will fall in place.

    While less diplomatic, I don’t feel this position is at odds with Carolyn’s advice to you:

    “David – don’t take offense, but if you need guidance, you’re not the person. It will develop. Give it time and input.”

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 10:43 pm

    I don’t have Alex’s ear, and I haven’t read anything by anyone about you being C.I..

    What I meant is, post it on that VNN thread. Alex is passing on gossip. VNNF is a nest of gossipers – some are of the worst sort. I wouldn’t go on there for anything, and no woman should. As is plain to see, very few ever do, and the men there are happier that way.

  1. Carolyn

    September 2, 2012 at 10:52 pm

    (Not for nothing, but all the people I know named Marr are Jews.)

    David, Marr is a German name, just as Finck is a German name. It’s silly to say that the only Marr’s you know are Jews. Even if others say that Finck or Fink is a “Jewish name,” don’t stoop to that level.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 2, 2012 at 11:30 pm

    I know that Marr is a German name, but as I said the only Marrs I personally have ever heard of are Jews. It was just a jab. Mr. Marr apparently feels no kinship with Bill, just because his spirituality is expressed via a form of Christianity. Jewish antagonism towards Christians is typical, too. Can’t help but causally connect the two. No harm intended.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 2, 2012 at 11:38 pm

    Carolyn Yeager: “Alex is passing on gossip.”

    I’ve been there a bit lately, since that Holocaust denial flap at C.C., and I haven’t seen the gossip you mention. If I come across anything, or if you’ll post a link to what you’ve mentioned, I’ll do as you’ve asked.

    EditorNEMW: “…if you are morally upright, calling yourself a Christian or Buddhist or atheist doesn’t matter…”

    A practical component of what would later become known as Buddhism was handed down from the Aryan Brahmins, to Shakyamuni Buddha as Djana, which was transmitted, via Tibet, to China by Bodhidarma where it was hybridized with Taoism to become Chan, which was transmitted to Japan by Dogen Zenji and hybridized with Shinto to become Zen from whence it was transmitted to Europe by D.T. Suzuki in the early decades of the twentieth century, hybridized with Western Philosophy and influential in the emergence of European nationalism.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with morality. It is a spiritual discipline aimed solely at awakening True Nature.

    “Show me your original face before your parents were born”.

    This is my personal interpretation of Esoteric Hitlerism. I believe that Adolf Hitler expressed Original Face for Germans. I don’t believe he was directly influenced by D.T. Suzuki. I suspect, if anything, he was nudged by Wagner.

    A good interpretation of Zen influence in pre-war Europe can be found in Hubert Benoit’s “Supreme Doctrine: Psychological Studies in Zen Thought”

  1. Carolyn

    September 3, 2012 at 12:00 am

    I’ve been there a bit lately, since that Holocaust denial flap at C.C., and I haven’t seen the gossip you mention

    I pointed it out to you and made it very clear, but you prefer to be obtuse. So be it. Not surprising in someone who likes Esoteric Hitlerism and wants us to study 40 volumes by a Chilean to know who we are.  However, I respect your name. Wilhelm Marr was a great man.

  1. Stefan

    September 3, 2012 at 12:43 am

    We should be very grateful that the definitions of slander, libel and defamatory have been listed above. This will make it easier for visitors to grasp that those at the helm of The White Network engage in the slander, libel and defamation of their fellows on a routine basis. Oh, no? Well, just put your caps of intellectual honesty on, listen to the broadcasts, and peruse the responses to almost any post, starting with this very post, “Libel, Slander, Defamation on the Internet.” You may even find it rather amusing that those with whom one of your thoughtful and fearless leaders has a disagreement are labeled “queers.” Then again, you may find it profoundly obnoxious and sickening, and you may find that your hope for a saner and better America is significantly diminished.

  1. Jimmy Marr

    September 3, 2012 at 12:48 am

    “Marr is a German name” “Wilhelm Marr was a great man.”

    I’d love to claim German ancestry, especially through Wilhelm Marr, but I seem to descend from the obtuse sept of that clan. My earliest known ancestor was an indentured servant who arrived in North Carolina in the 1700′s, probably as a result of the Highland clearances.

    Despairing to find my kin listed in the Torah, I’m in the second year of my attempt to conjure a resonance with them and my efforts do not obtain to Wagner.

    “To the make of a piper go seven years of his own learning and seven generations before. If it is in, it will out, as the Gaelic old-word says; if not, let him take to the net or sword. At the end of his seven years one born to it will stand at the start of knowledge, and leaning a fond ear to the drone, he may have parley with old folks of old affairs.

    Playing the tune of the “Fairy Harp”, he can hear his forefolks, plaided in skins, towsy headed and terrible, grunting at the oars and snoring in the caves; he has his wittle and club in the “Desperate Battle” (my own tune, my darling!), where the white-haired sea-rovers are on the shore, and stain’s on the edge of the tide; or, trying his art on Laments, he can stand by the cairn of kings, ken the colour of Fingal’s hair, and see the moon-glint on the hook of the Druids!”

    Neil Munro, The Lost Pibroch

  1. Ulfric

    September 3, 2012 at 1:21 am is back online as of 1:20 eastern time.

  1. Carolyn

    September 3, 2012 at 1:32 am

    Haha! I said I thought Greg Johnson was jumping the gun. Thanks for the heads up.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 3, 2012 at 8:03 am

    Jimmy, I know from whence Buddhism comes, I threw it out as a title, to make a point. If you LIVE Christian moral values, it doesn’t matter if you call yourself a Christian or not. I’m not particularly sure why there are people with anti-Christian views aside from its wrong-headed association with Jewry. It is a moral code by which we would live under any other name, chivalry perhaps. If it weren’t for the false notion that it is “given” to us by Jews, would you have such low regard for it? I think not, unless you are that dedicated a sophist. Most people NEED a code to refer to and even then I see people fail to live without doing wrong all the time. I have friends who have stolen, that cheat on their wives and the like, yet profess to be Christians, or at least nominal Catholics.

  1. Carolyn

    September 3, 2012 at 11:28 am

    Stefan – are you saying that those I have labeled “queers” are not queers? No, you’re not saying that. You’re just doing the usual queer behavior of insinuating something without really coming out and saying it. Libel and Slander are defined as making false statements; it is definitely true that Greg Johnson is queer. His past history up to this present moment tells a clear story of that. Those that continue to support Johnson at Counter-Currents are likely to be queer also … or liberal. Or just West-Coast, San Francisco types who tend to be proud of their Gay Pride parades and similar Avant-garde‘ cultural activities. No stifling intolerance for them.

    You are the obnoxious and sickening one to think that giving full emancipation for homosexuals (remember the Jews?) will lead to “a saner and better America.” It will only be saner and better from the homosexual’s point of view; it will only benefit them (remember the Jews?); it will HARM the normal, family-oriented heterosexual community. It already is!

    We can make it the rule that homosexuals want what’s good for themselves as a group, disregarding what’s good for the larger White community group. Their group interests CONFLICT with the larger White community, but the all-powerful Jewish Media helps to overpower the natural resistance to them, just as the media did for the Blacks. The homosexual community is every bit as heedless of what’s good for Whites as are the Jewish and Black communities. For that reason they should not be included in what is White either.

    You don’t have even a toe to stand on. Your silly criticism collapses in the face of the facts. Take your defense of homosexuality elsewhere.

  1. Hadding

    September 3, 2012 at 11:37 am

    Haha! I said I thought Greg Johnson was jumping the gun.

    What an unfortunate metaphor.

  1. Simon

    September 3, 2012 at 12:59 pm

    I don’t know what all the drama is about, and I don’t want to know. All I do know is that I 1st heard VOR when it just started and Peter Schaenk was on. It was good back then. I had no complaints.

    Then things slowly got worse after that. Irregardless of who said what, or who did what, there’s no reason why there shouldn’t be 10 networks, much less 2, dedicated to fighting the blatant anti-white bias put out by media and universities today that go unchecked. It seems there is no “Media Matters” to vet the enormous amount of lies spewed by mainstream media today like there were during the Bush years. Where are all the Crooks and Liars and ‘Media Matters’ organizations that scour every talking head lie? Is there even one? .

    I fear that once again, it comes down to ‘qui bono’. There are very real domestic terror organizations posing as anti-hate and anti-defaming organizations that actually are the complete opposite. They frame people & get away with it and it seems it’s gotten much worse in the Obama yrs. with what seems like a carte blanche co-signing by segments of our federal govt.

    Wasn’t one of the ‘Top Communists Goals’ in 1963 to either subvert or destroy the FBI? They must’ve really felt FBI were a threat in the old days. Now all I hear about is all these frame ups using so called ‘informants’, & they always seemed to be working hand in hand with these same tax payer funded faux ‘organizations’. Scary times indeed.

  1. August Dammler

    September 3, 2012 at 2:12 pm

    You know, Ms. Yeager, I don’t know if this Dr. Greg Johnson is a queer or not. You’ve never seen what he looks like. I’ve never seen what he looks like. I do know this, however. A face says a lot about itself, most times. True, some faces are closed tighter than a vault door inside a Jew bank. Still, I’ve got pretty good “gaydar”. And most times a face from a faggot shows up as the face OF a faggot, once captured on film. And I bet that’s why this Johnson character doesn’t want to be photographed. Something about his face doesn’t lie, and he knows it. Wouldn’t you agree?

  1. Carolyn

    September 3, 2012 at 2:41 pm

    August D. – There is more than that to go on. I posted these two items on August 16 on the “Nationalism and the Holocaust” Blog page. Johnson got his Ph.D in 1997 from Catholic University in Wash. DC, with a dissertation about Swedenbourg and Kant. He then taught part time at Morehouse College (for Blacks) in Atlanta. That is the extent of his academic career.

    Also see here:,%20Gregory%20R/aid/2510190 and here:
    More Sherover:
    And especially: This appears to be a collection of Sherover’s work put together by Johnson as editor. It came out in 2003. Sherover died in 2005 at 83 years. Re to that, his obit: (reports that Sherover never married, had no children. He was a visiting professor at Emory University in Atlanta in the 1990′s … at the time Johnson was teaching at Morehouse [All-Black Men's] College.)
    Morehouse College is located 3 miles from Downtown Atlanta. From it’s mission statement:

    A private historically black liberal arts college for men, Morehouse realizes this mission by emphasizing the intellectual and character development of its students. In addition, the College assumes special responsibility for teaching the history and culture of black people. Also 2003.

    Catholic University of America, Wash. D.C. –
    Current faculty:
    Catholic Identity:

    From Kant and Royce to Heidegger: Essays in Modern Philosophy

    by Charles M Sherover, Brenda L Moore, Gregory R Johnson (Selected by)*listing*title

    Who is Brenda L. Moore?

    Building Bodies
    by Brenda L. Moore

    Building Bodies is an exciting collection of articles that strive toward constructing theoretical models in which power, bodies, discourse, and subjectivity interact in a space we can call the “built” body, a dynamic, politicized, and biological site. Contributors discuss the complex relationship between body building and masculinity, between the built body and the racialized body, representations of women body builders in print and in film, and homoeroticism in body building. Linked by their focus on the sport and practice of body building, the authors in this volume challenge both the way their various disciplines (media studies, literary criticism, gender studies, film and sociology) have gone about studying bodies, and existing assumptions about the complex relationship between power, subjectivity, society, and flesh. Body building – in practice, in representation, and in the cultural imagination – serves as an launching point because the sport and practice provide ready challenges to existing assumptions about the “built” body.

  1. Will Williams

    September 3, 2012 at 4:17 pm

    Bravo! your position on the third sex in WN, Carolyn. What’s next after allowing them in to have a say how things will be? Transvestites? Transexuals? NAMBLA? Necrophiliacs? Zoophiliacs? Miscegenationists? Dr. Pierce’s National Alliance policy was that homosexuals were ineligible; “bisexuals” were ineligible as well, because, face it, they are queer, too.

    In our struggle between competing ideas and for which one will ultimately prevail to guide our people, rational, Nature grounded, biological, race preservationists will not be swayed much by the superstitious, dogmatic Christlings, of whatever stripe, who want to impose their so-called “Christian Values” on us, their otherworldly belief in the invisible Jewish tribal god Yahweh, and the false promise of life everlasting up in the clouds. We’re exclusionists when folks are wont to call us “Jewish” for our crit of their escapist Christ creed — which most certainly does have Semitic roots, BTW. Our people are from Europe, not the Levant. We don’t need the slave creed. This is not up for debate. “It’s not grounded in reality,” Dr. Pierce would say. “It’s Jewish poison!” He would be giving us the same advice today, despite the extreme misfortune that befell his Alliance when it went Big Tent soon after his died. Why did it die? Because, like I said in my interview with you, his successors compromised a fundamental, guiding principle for the sake of expediency, faster short term growth, by reaching out to the Christian herd and “tricking” them. Tsk, tsk!

    Like I was trying to explain to you in our friendly chat after we went off air: there are primarily two distinct factions within WN — one, the Christian Patriots, grounded in Jewish scriptures; the other, we biological race-thinkers, as some say, best represented by the teachings of Dr. William Luther Pierce. We in the latter sub-group don’t like being referred to as atheists nor as pagans because that’s not what we are. We, of The Remnant, anyway, have very firm beliefs, thank you, Editor and Stephan and Bill, who prove my point. They can all come our way if they choose, but we goddamned sure won’t be going theirs. Woops! There I go again. Our door is open however, to kinsmen who come to see the world the way we determined, race-thinking empiricists do. That’s how you build the unity, the will and determination to get the Jew off our collective neck — with purpose!

    I could tell Pastor Finck some good stories of how “atheist” Dr. Pierce artfully exposed our people, particularly law enforcement, to the facts of the treachery of that illegal intelligence-gathering, propaganda arm of the Jewish MOSSAD: the Anti-Defamation League of B’ad B’reath. Maybe some other time. Bill needs to be disabused of his notion that only Yahweh-fearing goyim are capable of defeating the Jew.

    Bill, Your job is to try to at least half-way straighten out the thinking of mush-for-brains — Yellow, Brown, Black & White; they’re all precious in His sight — Christian Zionists and their ilk. Our message is not for them. They are not ready for us. It’s not time.

  1. August Dammler

    September 3, 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Thanks for the info, Ms. Yeager. Not sure what to make of any of it, tho.

  1. Stefan

    September 3, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    Carolyn Yeager’s response to my comment is highly revealing.

    Did I write anything about “homosexual rights,” let alone write something that would lead any rational individual to believe that I support “giving full emancipation for homosexuals”?


    The response not only avoids really dealing with my comment. Bizarrely, the response underscores its main point.

    I am not a homosexual. I am not a defender of “homosexual rights.”
    I am not a liberal, nor a West-Coast type. And I am not a rabid supporter of Counter-Currents. But I am quite sure that those pesky realities will not get in the way of the very strong opinions of certain people reading this.

  1. Peter

    September 4, 2012 at 5:48 am

    VoR back online.
    Well guessed, Carolyn. Kudos, your assessment was the best, the others were wrong, demonstrates who talks with competence here (is it a sign of unusual occurances when VoR is off – not at all, it´s all like Mike Connor…).
    I pretty much fully agree with your whole view on that subject. Like VoR was often unreliable, weeks with no actualisation (judging from the perspective of a normal user).
    The allegation that your behavior had anything to do with VoR´s disappearing seemed absurd to me. The attacks against you at CC lowest level (at least, G. Johnson quickly said that he doesn´t want the debate to go on but to concentrate on the enemy).

    My take is this:
    I appreciate all productions. I very much appreciate your productions, the courage, the readiness to dissent also against WN establishment. But I also appreciate very much VoR, and I very much appreciate CC, and also the sharp brain, and actually the positions, of G. Johnson. And I of-course appreciate The White Network Wink

    (and maybe you remember that I say this as someone who has disagreements with you and who got some bruisings from you).

  1. Carolyn

    September 4, 2012 at 10:57 am

    You need to really read it all, which I’m sure you have not done. It shows that GJ always associates with other homosexuals; “gays” and lesbians play important roles in his academic past. I know people who have met GJ, therefore they know what he looks like. He is not blatantly “gay”, just a touch effeminate. He has never denied being a homosexual – if he wasn’t, he would. GJ should just come out with it and say what he is; as it is, he only appears dishonest. And he is dishonest.

  1. Carolyn

    September 4, 2012 at 11:21 am

    To Stefan – “Highly revealing” of you, heh heh. You are doing the typical homosexual (and Jewish) game of turning the tables, i.e. taking your opponent’s arguments, or points, and directing them back to him/her. Not very original of you.

    You didn’t write anything specific so how is one to “deal with your comments?” I replied to you: “No, you’re not saying that. You’re just doing the usual queer behavior of insinuating something without really coming out and saying it.” Then you list all the things you claim not to be, but never say what you do stand for or why you’re even writing a comment. You said I’m falsely labeling people as “queer;” not so. Now you only say that the readers here will not consider your denial of being homosexual (“pesky realities”). Why should they? Your only purpose in writing is to undermine taking an honest look at queers.

    Your style is sickening, truly, so I won’t approve anymore of your comments unless you can say what you mean without all the sneaky innuendo.

  1. Hadding

    September 4, 2012 at 11:30 am

    Greggy is manifestly dishonest for various reasons, but refusing to talk about what he does in private is not really dishonest. I would just as soon not know about it. If Greggy were straight as an arrow, it wouldn’t fix the problems with the public positions that he’s taken.

    It is easy to interpret his public behavior as the expression of an effeminate homosexual mentality (e.g. “homosexual cattiness” as Linder says), but that consideration is not essential for finding fault with what he says and does. Somebody might say, So what if he’s gay? He does good things. Does he really? The real argument is not that he’s queer but that some of what he does overtly (promoting Harold Covington, preaching defeatism on the revisionist front) is destructive, to the point that the overall value of his contribution may be in the negative.

  1. Carolyn

    September 4, 2012 at 11:48 am

    There are valid reasons for pointing out someone’s homosexuality, in the same way we want to know whether someone is a Jew or not. Would you say being a Jew doesn’t have anything to do with a person’s public positions?

    You can point out GJ’s faults and wrong positions (in your estimation) all you want, and you should. That doesn’t mean his deep association with the homosexual community should not be discussed. You’re almost saying “What people do in their bedroom is their own business.” But you must know it goes way beyond the bedroom.

    A lot of normal, heterosexual men don’t like to talk about male homosexuality. I guess that’s why it’s left up to me to do it.

  1. Hadding

    September 4, 2012 at 12:01 pm

    Haha, and you aren’t shy about it.

    I think it’s a bit different between homosexuals and Jews. Homosexuals usually aren’t raised in a homosexual family etc. or sent to a homosexual school and deliberately taught that the non-homosexual is their enemy. If they participate in a homosexual network, which certainly does happen, it’s something that they acquired later.

    In general I prefer to base criticisms on what is overt.

  1. August Dammler

    September 4, 2012 at 5:40 pm

    Ms Yeager, I strongly disagree with Mr. Hadding when he says this, “Greggy is manifestly dishonest for various reasons, but refusing to talk about what he does in private is not really dishonest.”

    When a group of men get together, whether for a hunting trip or a round of poker, it’s important to them that they feel each other man is what he appears to be.

    Don’t you think that also holds true for a group of men getting together to fight the Jew and the negro and the liberal too? I don’t think most groups of men, whether hunting or playing poker or working within a political organization (of our kind)want to have to keep looking over their back wondering if some guy named “Greg” is checking out their ass and having “thoughts”. I sure don’t.

    So Mr. Hadding hasn’t thought things through, imo. This isn’t an issue about the partuculars of Dr. Johnson’s sex life, but only about being comfortable with your comrades, and not having to fret over the possibility that one of them is looking to get into your pants.

    So IF Dr. Johnson is a homosexual “gay man”, then that’s the way it is. But Mr. Hadding is dead wrong when he says disguising that is not dishonest. As a white nationalist, I have a RIGHT to know if you’re a faggot, Mr. Hadding. And you have an obligation to set me straight that you’re not, or you need to hit the door and never come back.

    Does that sound too harsh to you, Ms. Yeager? My wife thinks it isn’t harsh enough. (she had a brother go “gay” on her, and it really wrecked her family, but that’s another story)

  1. Hadding

    September 4, 2012 at 7:11 pm

    When a group of men get together, whether for a hunting trip or a round of poker, it’s important to them that they feel each other man is what he appears to be.

    He appears to be different things on different occasions. Sometimes he appears to be a Christian, other times vehemently anti-Christian. At no time does he appear to be a man that you could persuade to go hunting.

  1. August Dammler

    September 4, 2012 at 7:51 pm

    Just checked in and saw your comment waiting, Mr. Hadding. Sounds like Dr. Johnson is a regular chameleon, by your description. Have you personally met him? Judging by your comment, it could be that you have. Would like to hear your impressions, if you have. Even if you haven’t, just why has this fellow become such a strange focus with everyone? It even fascinates me a bit, because I just can’t figure how a homosexual would ever get attracted to a group of people who pretty much despise his kind.

    @Mr. Williams, being as I’ve heard you’re an ex Green Beret officer, how come Dr. Pierce didn’t nominate you over that dumbbell Gliebe to run the NA? Okay, maybe he didn’t actually appoint Gliebe, but certainly he had the power to put you in the command seat. Damn if that wasn’t another big mistake he made, smart as he was. I’ve heard about your legal problems with Mr. Covington, and read the case. You won, hands down. But we both know you’ll never collect because Mr. C hasn’t got a pot to piss in. So let me ask: if he posted a public apology and admitted he did you wrong, would that bury the hatchet? If he said, “Look Will, I ain’t got a nickel, but I want everyone to know you were in the right and I wasn’t.” Would that close the issue down? Trust me, I don’t know the man and don’t give a hoots holler about him. I just am curious why we in this movement can’t seem to gain any traction on anything.

  1. Hadding

    September 4, 2012 at 8:59 pm

    @ August Dammler: You talk as if you were born last night and know absolutely nothing about what has been going on.

    I didn’t have to meet Johnson to say that he appears different things to different people. I relied on words from his own mouth.

    As for Tubbington, he’s not going to apologize for anything. He won’t even admit that he falsely accused Ben Klassen of murder, even though Klassen has been dead almost 20 years.

    Let’s not talk about him anymore on this blog, please.

  1. Carolyn

    September 4, 2012 at 10:14 pm

    To Hadding and August Dammler – I don’t have to meet Greg Johnson to know he is a homosexual. I rely on words from his own mouth and pen. 

  1. Carolyn

    September 5, 2012 at 12:03 am

    I posted a comment awhile back (August 28, see below) about a Jewish student named Tennen who claimed he was socked in the jaw because he told two boys at a party that he was Jewish, and after he was unconscious they stapled his mouth. His parents and the Jewish media made a big scene. Now, as I suggested it would, it turns out differently.

    On the Google Search page, this most recent story was 3rd in line after two of the original stories telling all the lies. These people are LIARS – even his parents. But the police did their job right.

    August 28, 2012 at 10:56 pm (Edit)

    This is not about “gays” (although you never know) but about making false police reports … maybe. This is worth watching. The police are already saying it was not a hate crime.

  1. Will Williams

    September 5, 2012 at 10:48 pm

    August Dammier asked: @Mr. Williams, being as I’ve heard you’re an ex Green Beret officer, how come Dr. Pierce didn’t nominate you over that dumbbell Gliebe to run the NA? Okay, maybe he didn’t actually appoint Gliebe, but certainly he had the power to put you in the command seat.”

    Dr. Pierce appointed no one to succeed him as NA Chairman, August, though “dumbbell” has claimed in past that he received the (unwitnessed) deathbed tap. He never planned to name a successor, himself. That task was always going to be left to his hand-picked, trusted Alliance Board of Directors, and, unfortunately, too soon they appointed the Gliebster, not knowing that he’d quickly go rogue on them.

    Being ex-Special Forces is no qualification to fill the shoes of a morally courageous giant like Dr. Pierce. BTW, where are all those physically courageous ex-Special Ops heroes of our race? Why have they not heeded the call to come to the aid of their race? The men I served with in the 1960s were certainly racially conscious; hell, our team voted 100% for George Wallace in our 1968 mock presidential election. What exactly were they fighting and risking their lives for then? Why won’t they fight now for the survival of their very precious, unique and fragile sub-species? Goes to show that transient physical courage doesn’t translate into the much more rare and enduring moral courage of the type Dr. Pierce had. The lying political saboteur Covington projected many times in print, with malice aforethought, about what a “coward” Dr. Pierce was. And contrary to rumors spread by the Covingtonistas, Dr. Pierce loved how I took care of his “light work,” leaving him time to focus on what he did best.

    The fact is, I had resigned from the Alliance just a couple of months before Dr. Pierce died because I was displeased with the direction our Alliance had been heading at that time, and particularly with one member who had been very disruptive, and was causing serious divisions among our membership. I didn’t know Dr. Pierce was terminally ill at the time and I don’t believe he knew then either. The BoD asked me at Dr. Pierce’s memorial service who I thought should be named the next Chairman and I gave them my recommendation — but they went with the ambitious goofball Gliebe who had, by then, strong Skinhead and Ohio factions, plus his FBI/SPLC handler Lawrence Myers, behind him, lobbying hard for him for the position.

    I’ve heard about your legal problems with Mr. Covington, and read the case. You won, hands down. But we both know you’ll never collect because Mr. C hasn’t got a pot to piss in.

    Do “we” really know that, August? He’s froggy of late, boasting about donations he has solicited and received, both on the Internet and through the USPS, for his Northwest Migration scam; plus he sells thousands of his 15 or so fantasy novels, either directly or through and other sites. His intellectual property alone is a piss pot of some value.

    I have no legal problems. Defendant Covington sure does, however. That’s why he’s been a fugitive, a “rabbit,” for going on 15 years now, always looking over his shoulder, “bags packed by the door,” confined to cyberspace and his hidey-hole up in Washington state.

    So let me ask: if he posted a public apology and admitted he did you wrong, would that bury the hatchet?

    No. In healthier times I’d have long since buried my ax in his neck for his dishonorable transgressions against me, separating his ugly head from his fat body. And nobody would have given a hoot’s holler.

    If he said, “Look Will, I ain’t got a nickel, but I want everyone to know you were in the right and I wasn’t.” Would that close the issue down?


    Trust me, I don’t know the man and don’t give a hoots holler about him. I just am curious why we in this movement can’t seem to gain any traction on anything.”

    Your curiosity is based on faulty premise, August: that Defendant Covington and I are somehow in the same “movement.” By his deeds he is the enemy, and one who, unlike Big Jew, I have established can actually be defeated, and legally, and be made an example of what we do to his type. You’d do well to continue not giving him any thought and advise others to do likewise. He and Greggy and their co-followers deserve one another and are destined for further failure.

    Check out Hadding’s blog link for this treacherous smear artist’s long history of “movement” perfidy. And even though the subject of this thread is “Libel, Slander, Defamation on the Internet,” for which Defendant Covington is the poster boy, we should also take Hadding’s advice: “Let’s not talk about him anymore on this blog, please.” We must police our own, but leave Tub o’ Lard to me. I own him. Should his migrant suckers want to pool their bucks and pay me the $230,000+ he owes, then he’ll be free to come out from under his rock and lead them in the Northwest Territory, or anywhere else but Upper East Tennessee. I could then take that seed money and perhaps start a hillbilly “movement” that might make Dr. Pierce proud.

  1. Carolyn

    September 5, 2012 at 10:59 pm

    Will, I have not approved August Dammler’s last comment on this subject because it clearly reveals him as a “Covingtonista.” So don’t expect a reply from Mr. Dammler.

  1. northpal

    September 10, 2012 at 10:02 pm

    I have been ill and feeling down. I come over here and see some MORON calling Bill Finck a jew.
    I laughed so loud and felt better, nothing like a MORON to make you feel a bit better.

  1. EditorNEMW

    September 11, 2012 at 7:14 am

    WHay is moronic is to say Whites are from Europe. Europe was under ICE 20.000 years ago and the oldest Egyptians mummies are WHITE, with blonde and red hair. It has been proven archaeologically that we come from further south originally, so we are indeed the real Semites. Some people may be unsure of how the “Jews” fit into it all, but that is their problem as CI addresses that issue. Also, Whites whether via YHWH, Odin or Zeus have all built their culture on the belief in an afterlife and the moral values that get us there in everlasting glory, whether it is the Christian heaven or Valhalla. So THAT is a stupid atheist issue to use against Christians. Ask almost ANYBODY, and they will tell you regardless of their personal conviction to a faith that they hope that there is something better after this life. Period. It is in us, we are a spiritual people.