Hundreds attend memorial mass for WWII Croatian leader in Zagreb
Hundreds of Croatians attended a memorial mass in the Basilica of the Heart of Christ in Zagreb on Sunday, Dec. 28, for World War II-era leader Ante Pavelić [shown at right] on the 49th anniversary of his death, it was reported by local media.
Pavelić was the founder of the nationalist Ustaše movement which advocated for an independent Croatia and called for armed rebellion against the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Croatia was put into this brand new “state” of Yugoslavia when it was created at the Paris Peace Talks after the First World War.
Yugoslavia's capital Belgrade allied the state with Stalin and the Bolshevist Soviet Union. After the Germans conquered Yugoslavia in 1941, Pavelić became the new head of state of Croatia and allied his regime with National Socialist Germany and Facist Italy.
Following the war, Pavelić made his way to Argentina where he was wounded in an assassination attempt in 1957. He died in Spain two years later.
Jewish groups are loudly complaining to the Catholic Church for allowing a memorial mass for someone they call a “murderer.” The Church responded by saying that memorial masses are available to all Catholics and are never denied.
According to a recent “global survey” conducted by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), over half the respondents in Croatia said they believed that Jews were more loyal to Israel than to their countries of residence, and that they held too much power in business and spoke too much about the “Holocaust.”
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Being as you are a student of WW2 history I would love to hear your opinion on this video dealing with Hitler's religious beliefs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x90kI0zjI7E
It's about 30 minutes long, but very well sourced.
Hitler's unbelief
Hi Finn,
I'm flattered you want my opinion,
heh heh, but I think you mostly just want to advertise that video.
I watched it, and I think it's basically well done and pretty much entirely accurate, but it contains a lot of little errors in word usage, things like that. It also has the flaw of so many videos, that imagery is used to keep something happening visually, but that doesn't have anything to do with the content and is therefore distracting. I think the beginning is the very strongest part.
I don't think it's really so important for WW2 history. It's only about understanding Hitler's personal views on religion that he held privately vs what he said publicly. Religious views are not the most important views a statesman has.
However, my answer to "Was Adolf Hitler a Christian?" is no. But he didn't follow any other religion either, in spite of sometimes referring to them as superior to Christianity. Those were just passing comments, not carefully thought out or examined. He accepted Christianity as the religion of the West and had no intention of trying to change that.
This viedo is based mostly on Table Talk, which I have been reading for several months now, so I'm quite familiar with these views. Hitler brought up the subject a LOT during his dinnertime conversation (or others brought it up and he responded, but mostly I think it was initiated by him) but I think it's like with all of us -- we like to talk about religion and express opinions about it. He could do it among his private circle. Doesn't the saying go, "Don't talk about religion or politics in polite company ... if you want to keep it that way."
It's very clear that Hitler didn't like Church Christianity ... and Christianity was really tied to the Catholic and Protestant Churches at that time ... and he liked even less Church clerics, high or low, who wanted to comment on politics and government to their hearts content, and be taken seriously too. That was his real pet peeve, because they influenced the thinking of the common folk, and the National Socialists wanted to influence them otherwise.
It's also true that Hitler did not entertain any personal belief in it, but he did continue to genuinely admire the figure of a fighting Jesus as he is portrayed in the bible. Most importantly, Christianity was the religion of Germans going way back to the Holy Roman German Empire and he respected that. He always said he didn't need to try to kill it because it would die of its own accord from the advance of science, which was continually explaining more and more of the "mysteries." In tomorrow's episode of TT, Hitler announces his plan to place an observatory in every German town of any size, on the belief that increasing man's knowledge of the universe is the best way of freeing him of tendencies to "mental aberration," which he said plagued especially the overly melancholy, isolated rural Aryan who often devoted himself to too much prayer and bible study. He called the Old Testament Jewish pettifoggery and mumbo-jumbo.
He said over and over that Christianity would die out on its own; that he didn't want to yank it away from the people, who would not accept that anyway; it would simply cause dissension. Plus, in my opinion, Christian traditions do a lot to hold our traditional culture together and it accounts for much of what the German people were willing to fight for. It has it's positives too.
One thing that the 3rd Reich showed us is that Christians and anti-Christians can work and hold together in the face of a common enemy, a clear nationalist policy that they all agree to, and a great leader who loves them all as his people. Religion is not the maker or breaker of a people! Truthfully, I don't think there was/is any need for this video, but it is based on fact.
P.S. on Nietzsche
Hitler did not admire Nietzsche. He said on several occasions that N. did not particularly appeal to him, he did not read him, yet so many Nietzsche fans try to make out that Hitler got his philosophy from Nietzsche. Not so!
Thank you for the reply. Your
Thank you for the reply. Your intelligently detailed response is exactly the reason I asked you and not mere promotion ;) For the most part I just wanted it to be dissected by a learned person. And that you did! :)
While I agree with your overall sentiments, there are a few minor things we differ on:
Generally, as Hitler said, Christianity would die a natural death; for the most part that’s how the ‘religious question’ was dealt with, BUT clear intent to speed that process along can be seen in some the polices and methods of the SS, Hitler Youth, and among others. There were SS writings openly attacking Christianity (some shown in the video) published and provided to other party members to read, and perhaps influence. Hitler Youth meetings were scheduled on Sundays to coincidentally conflict with church services. Granted many of the orders to remove crucifixes from schools and things of that nature were likely more Bormann than Hitler; I don’t think it is coincidence at all that Hitler surrounded himself with people more extreme then him in their distaste for Christianity.
Never outright attacking it, but somewhat subtle methods to chip away at it. Hitler played a Jack Kevorkian like role of transitioning an ailing body, as painlessly, and quickly as possible to the inevitable. Or at least that’s the way it seems to me.
As far as Nietzsche, like any fan of Nietzsche I seek to overstate his presence in all things! :)
Granted Schopenhauer seemed to be Hitler’s favorite philosopher, he did in fact read Nietzsche, according to Otto Dietrich:
“But from the works of Nietzsche Hitler culled only the cult of personality and the doctrine of the superman; he was not interested in other aspects of the philosopher’s writings… Aside from Nietzsche the only philosopher I ever heard Hitler mention was Schopenhauer”. (Hitler I Knew p.123)
And held him in high esteem as he mentions the 3 great German philosophers “Schopenhauer, Nietzsche Kant” in TT (p.89)
Being a reader of both Hitler and Nietzsche, there are similarities that are coincident or not, and more so, as Schopenhauer was the influence of Nietzsche, it is very hard to find a person that really likes the one and flat out dislikes the other.
None of that is to say: “Hitler got his beliefs from Nietzsche” that of course is inaccurate, but he did read him, agree with some of it, and place him among the German greats.
I think I at least explained why I arivved at a different perceptions then you on those two minor issues. It's all over-analsis in the end :)
Thank you for the critique about the video imagining and editing, very helpful and informative.
As to your points, Finn ....
1. Adolf Hitler did not supervise the SS. He did not set its agenda, Himmler did. He did not read all their publications. He certainly could influence what went on but unless it was really important to him, he let people do things their way. He said at times that he didn't agree with some of Himmler's more "esoteric" projects but let him do his thing as long as his SS operation was able to fund it. It was, to Hitler, not the most important part of the work of the SS - police work and security was. When you have someone as capable as Heinrich Himmer was, you don't insist on him doing things just as you would in all matters. In that case, you would have to be doing it yourself!
Sometimes he countermanded what Bormann was trying to get away with regarding Christianity. If you look at Hitler's government ministries, you see a different picture than at the SS. Your problem is wanting to make the SS the highest law of the land, but it wasn't.
2. The fact that Hitler read some of Nietzsche and commented on it doesn't make him a fan. HE SAID himself he didn't care much for Nietzsche but of course he recognized N.s high standing in the world, that he was an important German philosopher. You point out that Otto Dietrich, his press secretary, wrote:
Whereas he read Schopenhauer again and again as a young man. Your efforts to link together Nietzsche and Hitler smack of "trying too hard," if not to say twisting the truth in order to create a Hitler in your own image.
Two little things I remember is that the narrator says Table Talks instead of Table Talk (a common error) and pronounced Heinz Linge's name "Ling" without the e sound (pronounced "uh") at the end.
Of course Himmler was in
Of course Himmler was in charge of the SS and Hitler did not micro-manage him, he also rolled his eyes to Himmler's romanticism of Paganism but also, the SS would not be promoting something Hitler opposed. You gotta remember, the SS was set to be the new aristocracy, and to mold the new aristocracy around non-Christian ideals is a huge statement. Hitler did indeed have to put the brakes on Bormann a few times, not out of any sentiment for Christian culture but more in order to stamp out lil fires Bormann kept trying to start.
As far as Nietzsche, as I said in the video its personal opinion, it is really impossible to figure out how much if at all he was influenced. You had just said: “he did not read him,” I wanted to show you he did, and “Hitler did not admire Nietzsche” I just wanted to point out he placed him among the 3 great German minds, when he could have placed many other names there. “Admire” or not, he viewed him in a respectable light…Not to mention his closeness to Nietzsche’s sister. Personally it doesn’t matter if he did or did not ‘like’ Nietzsche, more of a case of ‘if the shoe fits ‘. It’s all conjecture on both our parts tho.
Pronunciation of the names… If you really want to headache look at how I butcher ‘Hans jurgen Koehler’ name as I explain he was just a pseudonym used in the Hitler=Rothschild scam on another video on that page. Pronouncing foreign names is definitely not my strong suit. Thanks again…
I think this is just a case of us looking at the same painting and seeing a different picture.
Last words
"As far as Nietzsche, as I said in the video its personal opinion,"
Personal opinion interjected in a video that you say is "very well sourced" doesn't work very well. Giving a distorted view of history because it is your personal preference for how you'd like it to be seen is damaging to truth and also to the standing and worth of your video. In my personal opinion
.
”I just wanted to point out he placed him among the 3 great German minds, when he could have placed many other names there."
This is not the way it went. In Table Talk, the Fuehrer says:
No way is he declaring outright that Nietzsche is one of Germany's 3 greatest philosophers. When he says "our great men" he means a lot more than only those three.
"Not to mention his closeness to Nietzsche’s sister."
It was not because he felt close to Nietzsche, who was an avowed philo-semite. So, Finn, how does your great admiration for Neitzsche square with his intense dislike of antisemitism?? How does any WN square that?
IOW, Hitler did not befriend Elisabeth Förster-Neitzsche because of his regard for Nietzsche, but because she was a supporter and her brother was world famous. The connection could only help his movement.